When in India "died" wootz?

mahratt · 26th February 2016, 01:23 PM

One of the participants in Russian forum wrote that Anosov Bulat (wootz) was very different structures, including the most complex. He has experimented with wootz, not engaged in mass production.

By the way, all the diaries Anosova completely open and available. They were published in 1841. It is because of his diaries, I gave a citations.

Emanuel · 26th February 2016, 03:51 PM

Here are multiple links to Anosov's "On Bulat" published in French in the "Annuaire du Journal des Mines de Russie" 1841, St. Petersbourg.

https://archive.org/details/annuairedujourn01unkngoog
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...iew=1up;seq=11

Haven't read it yet but will do shortly.

The original "On the Bulat", was published in the Russian Gorny Journal in 1841 and is easily available online as Mahratt suggested. I'm sure the later German version can also be found.

Maybe that will put to rest what Anosov did and didn't do. Don't expect pictures though. These are poor scans of an 1841 journal.

Emanuel

ariel · 26th February 2016, 04:35 PM

Emanuel,

That's the problem: Anosov described his "bulats" as being Taban and Khorasan.

But please re-read Kirill's e-mail to me: the definitions at that time were different and imprecise. Thus, personal definitions of bulat patterns mentioned by Anosov are unreliable. Indeed, we have not a single known example of his "bulat" with anything but the simplest Sham. The only proof of his definitions would consist of actual examples.

And, by the way, I could not find any message on the Russian forum about Anosov's bulats having "...very different structures, including the most complex"

Emanuel · 26th February 2016, 04:46 PM

Quite the impasse then Ariel.

Fascinating either way though. This has been a most enjoyable thread

ariel · 26th February 2016, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Quite the impasse then Ariel.

I wouldn't be so pessimistic.
Perhaps, some of our colleagues from Russia can get into Anosov's collections and post here pics of documented and clearly labeled blades with truly complex patterns.
I, for one, would be delighted to see them.

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2016, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I wouldn't be so pessimistic.
Perhaps, some of our colleagues from Russia can get into Anosov's collections and post here pics of documented and clearly labeled blades with truly complex patterns.
I, for one, would be delighted to see them.

Me too!!! Then I could sleep again

I feel sad that the Russian forum has been deprived of you guys great debate.....but lucky us. On the bright side, I personally have learned a great deal on wootz, and perhaps a few things about human nature.

26th February 2016, 03:51 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Anosov's Memoir "On Bulat" Here are multiple links to Anosov's "On Bulat" published in French in the "Annuaire du Journal des Mines de Russie" 1841, St. Petersbourg. https://archive.org/details/annuairedujourn01unkngoog http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...iew=1up;seq=11 Haven't read it yet but will do shortly. The original "On the Bulat", was published in the Russian Gorny Journal in 1841 and is easily available online as Mahratt suggested. I'm sure the later German version can also be found. Maybe that will put to rest what Anosov did and didn't do. Don't expect pictures though. These are poor scans of an 1841 journal. Emanuel

26th February 2016, 01:23 PM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	One of the participants in Russian forum wrote that Anosov Bulat (wootz) was very different structures, including the most complex. He has experimented with wootz, not engaged in mass production. By the way, all the diaries Anosova completely open and available. They were published in 1841. It is because of his diaries, I gave a citations.

26th February 2016, 04:35 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Emanuel, That's the problem: Anosov described his "bulats" as being Taban and Khorasan. But please re-read Kirill's e-mail to me: the definitions at that time were different and imprecise. Thus, personal definitions of bulat patterns mentioned by Anosov are unreliable. Indeed, we have not a single known example of his "bulat" with anything but the simplest Sham. The only proof of his definitions would consist of actual examples. And, by the way, I could not find any message on the Russian forum about Anosov's bulats having "...very different structures, including the most complex"

26th February 2016, 04:46 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Quite the impasse then Ariel. Fascinating either way though. This has been a most enjoyable thread