When in India "died" wootz?

Gavin Nugent · 25th February 2016, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Wootz is refferred as Bulat in Russian. I am not sure of definition of Bulat related to wootz, but in terms of clasical wootz - i'd not call this blade as such.

Very early in the 19th century, the term Foulad was also used for Wootz.

Gavin

ALEX · 26th February 2016, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Very early in the 19th century, the term Foulad was also used for Wootz.

Gavin

Yes, just another variation.
What I meant is that Russians used (and still do) the term Bulat for wootz and non-wootz patterns alike, like Anosov's examples and some modern blades similar to Kindjal shown here earlier. They seemingly combined broader specter of Damascus under this term. Kirill Rivkin stated the differences of wootz definitions between Anosov's time and our's. My statement is that it still continues under the term "Bulat".

ariel · 26th February 2016, 04:31 AM

This topic was duplicated on the Russian forum guns.ru

One of the participants there handled one of the Anosov's bulat blade. As per his testimony, it was Sham, and quite unattractive.
The database is growing, and still in the same direction. Kirill's assessment gets support from different sources. Meanwhile, Sham 4, Taban/Khorasan 0. Any more examples?

mahratt · 26th February 2016, 06:47 AM

In Russian forum guns.ru, I duplicated the subject of Anosov Bulat (wootz), and one of the participants says that in the city of Rostov-on-Don was an exhibition of artifacts from the Hermitage. According to him, among other things, It was blade Anosova from interesing patterned wootz steel (not a "sham").

ariel · 26th February 2016, 11:18 AM

Russian colleagues have unique opportunities to see Anosov's blades and here I am just reporting their comments for the interest of all Forumites.

The story of Rostov-on-Don blade never even mentioned that it had a "not Sham" pattern, however. In fact, the person who is cited above described it as "... resembling patterned bulat"

Another participant categorically denied that Anosov was even capable of producing Taban, and asserted that his diaries are still kept under lock and key and any information about his bulat is still viewed as military secret.

Yet another explained away the absence of Anosov's Taban/Khorasan blades by three revolutions and two World Wars. Obviously, Sham blades must have been uniquely resistant to societal upheavals.

Apparently, in Zlatoust there is a big collection of Anosov's blades, but the access to it is not permitted and the actual examples were never published. I wonder why.

mahratt · 26th February 2016, 01:23 PM

One of the participants in Russian forum wrote that Anosov Bulat (wootz) was very different structures, including the most complex. He has experimented with wootz, not engaged in mass production.

By the way, all the diaries Anosova completely open and available. They were published in 1841. It is because of his diaries, I gave a citations.

Emanuel · 26th February 2016, 03:51 PM

Here are multiple links to Anosov's "On Bulat" published in French in the "Annuaire du Journal des Mines de Russie" 1841, St. Petersbourg.

https://archive.org/details/annuairedujourn01unkngoog
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...iew=1up;seq=11

Haven't read it yet but will do shortly.

The original "On the Bulat", was published in the Russian Gorny Journal in 1841 and is easily available online as Mahratt suggested. I'm sure the later German version can also be found.

Maybe that will put to rest what Anosov did and didn't do. Don't expect pictures though. These are poor scans of an 1841 journal.

Emanuel

ariel · 26th February 2016, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Yes, just another variation.
What I meant is that Russians used (and still do) the term Bulat for wootz and non-wootz patterns alike, like Anosov's examples and some modern blades similar to Kindjal shown here earlier. They seemingly combined broader specter of Damascus under this term. Kirill Rivkin stated the differences of wootz definitions between Anosov's time and our's. My statement is that it still continues under the term "Bulat".

+1.
Fulad in Persian, Wootz in Kannada ( I think), bulat in Russian.
And Alex is correct: in Russian any patterned steel was called "bulat". And this confusion was not limited to Russia only: Rawson had no idea that wootz and mechanical damaskus are different entities.

Even worse, in Russian fiction ( even classical literature) and poetry " bulat" was and still is used for descriptions of particularly strong , historically famous and deadly blades, irrespective of their metal structure.

mahratt · 27th February 2016, 08:41 AM

If read the research Anosov, it is clear that in Russia in 19 century is well distinguished damask from wootz steel (again strongly recommend everyone to read primary sources, not that someone thought of the Internet and popular journal).

Subject poluchlas really interesting. It is a pity that no one was able to show the historical sources (19th century), in which the English traveler, military or ethnographers wrote directly about when Indiii ceased to produce and forge wootz.... But circumstantial evidence is also interesting.

ausjulius · 17th April 2016, 04:15 AM

after reading though this discussion, i will just share my general observation at least based on knife making and knife and its economics.

it is no mystery as to why bulat/wootz disappeared with so little fanfare.

the steels made in europe already in the 18th century were superior to other made in the world.

science being applied in their production and treatment..

if you have worked with "smith made" steel you will know why the world became hooked on european steels..

sith made steel is a different surprise every time..
with working tools its always a surprise .. many times a nasty surprise.. which transfers on to the maker of the tools. failures in blades tools ect.. hurt your reputation.

making the superior steel that you were sure of its quality for a thin edge only was the normal practice most tools outside of europe at this time..
wedging it in iron.

time consuming.. a full blade like a sword in a good steel was a very costly item to make..

suddenly you could buy a superior steel in a formed bar or rod for a fraction of the price and it was a reliable material..
you could forge full blade form it for a fraction of the price.

sout east asian blades are a good example ...lamination of tools and smelting of ones own steel stopped almost instantly when european steel arrived.

bulat/wootz became old hat - uninteresting and the new steel pushed it aside.

a bulat blade can not survive the same harsh treatment as the blade of a regular cavalry blade made in 1800 form some reputable european maker.

in a period when swords were still used this becomes completely apparent.

handguns as well replacing edged weapons as status symbols and for personal weapons.

in places where there was a strong cultural or religious tradition for an exotic blade material like japan or indonesia.. or due to isolation like tibet.. laminated or pattern welded blades still remained common...

in india wootz was popular because it was a superior steel.. its pattern was the secondary reason it was popular.. in central asia.. iran... afghanistan it was all the same as well.

wars and chaos. afghanistan. nations in what is now india... iran.. economic disruption ect..
many things changed in this time..

you can also look at glass production.. european production totally surpassed local production at this same time as well.. previously a expensive product became cheap better quality and available to all.

if you collect playing cards . its the same time that european playing cards replaced middle eastern cards as well. mass production... better quality, cheaper price.

this was a period of economic change in the world.

just look at how all these specialized skills died out in europe after ww1 and ww2
just gone over such a short perior.. many of their markets disappeared form one day to the next..

british raj were not buying fine bespoke products any more.. the worlds aristocracy disappeared, there was no wealthy gentry going in safari.. no exotically dressed bodyguards..
ect ect ect..

this can happen in 1 year.. the craftsmen disperse so do their techniques the client network gone... the item will vanish.. and then 100 years later we will discuss it nostalgically.
but its process is lost to us, and we will view it as some mystery. as many of these things take many many small specialized steps.. if things are not performed constantly they are lost in a decade or less.

ariel · 17th April 2016, 08:12 AM

Exactly my thoughts.

mahratt · 17th April 2016, 10:55 AM

I see no one reads closely to each other ... I did not write that after the mid-19th century, preserved the mass production of wootz steel. I fully agrees that economic reasons have led to the disappearance of the mass production of wootz weapons.
But can not talk about the disappearance production of weapons of wootz steelin the middle of the 19th century, as there is evidence proving that the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel produced before the end of the 19th century.

ariel · 17th April 2016, 01:21 PM

How does "middle of the 19th century" differ from " before the end of the 19th century"?

And what is the relevance of Central Asia to the original question of Indian wootz?

As we speak, dozens of bladesmiths around the world ( India included) produce wootz of variable quality. Is it an argument in favor of " wootz manufacture never died" proposition?

Is it possible to be more precise in posing questions and choosing arguments?

Just curious.

mahratt · 17th April 2016, 06:52 PM

To make it clearer. The middle of the 19th century - the year 1850. End of 19th century - 1899. The difference in half a century - is essential.
Communication between Central Asia and India is simple. If the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel made before the end of the 19th century (although it was not mass-produced), then in India is the production of locally could be preserved.

26th February 2016, 11:18 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Russian colleagues have unique opportunities to see Anosov's blades and here I am just reporting their comments for the interest of all Forumites. The story of Rostov-on-Don blade never even mentioned that it had a "not Sham" pattern, however. In fact, the person who is cited above described it as "... resembling patterned bulat" Another participant categorically denied that Anosov was even capable of producing Taban, and asserted that his diaries are still kept under lock and key and any information about his bulat is still viewed as military secret. Yet another explained away the absence of Anosov's Taban/Khorasan blades by three revolutions and two World Wars. Obviously, Sham blades must have been uniquely resistant to societal upheavals. Apparently, in Zlatoust there is a big collection of Anosov's blades, but the access to it is not permitted and the actual examples were never published. I wonder why. Last edited by ariel; 26th February 2016 at 11:30 AM.

26th February 2016, 03:51 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Anosov's Memoir "On Bulat" Here are multiple links to Anosov's "On Bulat" published in French in the "Annuaire du Journal des Mines de Russie" 1841, St. Petersbourg. https://archive.org/details/annuairedujourn01unkngoog http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...iew=1up;seq=11 Haven't read it yet but will do shortly. The original "On the Bulat", was published in the Russian Gorny Journal in 1841 and is easily available online as Mahratt suggested. I'm sure the later German version can also be found. Maybe that will put to rest what Anosov did and didn't do. Don't expect pictures though. These are poor scans of an 1841 journal. Emanuel

26th February 2016, 04:31 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This topic was duplicated on the Russian forum guns.ru One of the participants there handled one of the Anosov's bulat blade. As per his testimony, it was Sham, and quite unattractive. The database is growing, and still in the same direction. Kirill's assessment gets support from different sources. Meanwhile, Sham 4, Taban/Khorasan 0. Any more examples?

26th February 2016, 06:47 AM	#4
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	In Russian forum guns.ru, I duplicated the subject of Anosov Bulat (wootz), and one of the participants says that in the city of Rostov-on-Don was an exhibition of artifacts from the Hermitage. According to him, among other things, It was blade Anosova from interesing patterned wootz steel (not a "sham").

26th February 2016, 01:23 PM	#6
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	One of the participants in Russian forum wrote that Anosov Bulat (wootz) was very different structures, including the most complex. He has experimented with wootz, not engaged in mass production. By the way, all the diaries Anosova completely open and available. They were published in 1841. It is because of his diaries, I gave a citations.

27th February 2016, 08:41 AM	#9
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	If read the research Anosov, it is clear that in Russia in 19 century is well distinguished damask from wootz steel (again strongly recommend everyone to read primary sources, not that someone thought of the Internet and popular journal). Subject poluchlas really interesting. It is a pity that no one was able to show the historical sources (19th century), in which the English traveler, military or ethnographers wrote directly about when Indiii ceased to produce and forge wootz.... But circumstantial evidence is also interesting.

17th April 2016, 04:15 AM	#10
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 438	after reading though this discussion, i will just share my general observation at least based on knife making and knife and its economics. it is no mystery as to why bulat/wootz disappeared with so little fanfare. the steels made in europe already in the 18th century were superior to other made in the world. science being applied in their production and treatment.. if you have worked with "smith made" steel you will know why the world became hooked on european steels.. sith made steel is a different surprise every time.. with working tools its always a surprise .. many times a nasty surprise.. which transfers on to the maker of the tools. failures in blades tools ect.. hurt your reputation. making the superior steel that you were sure of its quality for a thin edge only was the normal practice most tools outside of europe at this time.. wedging it in iron. time consuming.. a full blade like a sword in a good steel was a very costly item to make.. suddenly you could buy a superior steel in a formed bar or rod for a fraction of the price and it was a reliable material.. you could forge full blade form it for a fraction of the price. sout east asian blades are a good example ...lamination of tools and smelting of ones own steel stopped almost instantly when european steel arrived. bulat/wootz became old hat - uninteresting and the new steel pushed it aside. a bulat blade can not survive the same harsh treatment as the blade of a regular cavalry blade made in 1800 form some reputable european maker. in a period when swords were still used this becomes completely apparent. handguns as well replacing edged weapons as status symbols and for personal weapons. in places where there was a strong cultural or religious tradition for an exotic blade material like japan or indonesia.. or due to isolation like tibet.. laminated or pattern welded blades still remained common... in india wootz was popular because it was a superior steel.. its pattern was the secondary reason it was popular.. in central asia.. iran... afghanistan it was all the same as well. wars and chaos. afghanistan. nations in what is now india... iran.. economic disruption ect.. many things changed in this time.. you can also look at glass production.. european production totally surpassed local production at this same time as well.. previously a expensive product became cheap better quality and available to all. if you collect playing cards . its the same time that european playing cards replaced middle eastern cards as well. mass production... better quality, cheaper price. this was a period of economic change in the world. just look at how all these specialized skills died out in europe after ww1 and ww2 just gone over such a short perior.. many of their markets disappeared form one day to the next.. british raj were not buying fine bespoke products any more.. the worlds aristocracy disappeared, there was no wealthy gentry going in safari.. no exotically dressed bodyguards.. ect ect ect.. this can happen in 1 year.. the craftsmen disperse so do their techniques the client network gone... the item will vanish.. and then 100 years later we will discuss it nostalgically. but its process is lost to us, and we will view it as some mystery. as many of these things take many many small specialized steps.. if things are not performed constantly they are lost in a decade or less.

17th April 2016, 08:12 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Exactly my thoughts.

17th April 2016, 10:55 AM	#12
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I see no one reads closely to each other ... I did not write that after the mid-19th century, preserved the mass production of wootz steel. I fully agrees that economic reasons have led to the disappearance of the mass production of wootz weapons. But can not talk about the disappearance production of weapons of wootz steelin the middle of the 19th century, as there is evidence proving that the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel produced before the end of the 19th century.

17th April 2016, 01:21 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	How does "middle of the 19th century" differ from " before the end of the 19th century"? And what is the relevance of Central Asia to the original question of Indian wootz? As we speak, dozens of bladesmiths around the world ( India included) produce wootz of variable quality. Is it an argument in favor of " wootz manufacture never died" proposition? Is it possible to be more precise in posing questions and choosing arguments? Just curious.

17th April 2016, 06:52 PM	#14
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	To make it clearer. The middle of the 19th century - the year 1850. End of 19th century - 1899. The difference in half a century - is essential. Communication between Central Asia and India is simple. If the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel made before the end of the 19th century (although it was not mass-produced), then in India is the production of locally could be preserved.