Dagger from Crete (?) - for comment +translation plea

Martin Lubojacky · 25th February 2016, 11:45 AM

Thank you for your standpoint Ariel. Some times it is really better to leave some parts unrestored - in a state, as it was found. I somehow still cannot decide (re the handle).

As far as the origin is concerned, the seller told me it was allegedly from Crete ... Autonomous Cretan state was founded in 1898, so it may be written in "osmanli" ?? I think, that, except of what you said, there could also be two signs, which could spek for Crete - the shape of handle (shape of the pommel + shape of the lead collar) and (I feel it so) the shape of the blade.

But you are right - the engraving is "yataganish" ......

Rashka Vatnik · 25th February 2016, 03:09 PM

Form of the blade is not Cretan.

Emanuel · 25th February 2016, 03:52 PM

Interesting.

The scracthes on the blade a re very crude imitation of the usual yataghan inscriptions. The blade profile is very similar to the Ahmed Tekelu yataghans

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2072

The punch work on the spine is similar to what is seen on Laz bicagi / Black Sea Yataghan. Considering the population exchanges with Cretan populations and the Pontic region, this might explain the Cretan connection.

Martin Lubojacky · 27th February 2016, 06:25 PM

Thank you Emanuel, Rashka and Ariel for your comments.

Islamic 1301 is equal 1884 Gregorian. That time Crete was under the Ottoman Empiry (I apologize if I am wrong). I think that determinant for the place of use is the style of the handle (more or less generally). Could it be, that it was produced by Turkish artisan in Crete ? (I think there is written Ali on the blade, but this still nobody confirmed ...)
Regards,
Martin

ariel · 27th February 2016, 07:01 PM

Obviously, it was produced by a Muslim artisan.
Whether his workshop was located in Izmir, Sarajevo or Chania cannot be determined.
But when we are talking about Cretan knives, we mean a very different thing. Surely, it was influenced by the Ottoman progenitor, but Christian Cretan Greeks modified it extensively and created their own very specific style. And I cannot see any evidence of it in your example.

Martin Lubojacky · 27th February 2016, 08:36 PM

Maybe the shape of the handle and the collar ? I spent 3 years in Turkey and I did not see asuch handle here, except one in Izmir

25th February 2016, 03:52 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Interesting. The scracthes on the blade a re very crude imitation of the usual yataghan inscriptions. The blade profile is very similar to the Ahmed Tekelu yataghans http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2072 The punch work on the spine is similar to what is seen on Laz bicagi / Black Sea Yataghan. Considering the population exchanges with Cretan populations and the Pontic region, this might explain the Cretan connection. Attached Images

25th February 2016, 11:45 AM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Thank you for your standpoint Ariel. Some times it is really better to leave some parts unrestored - in a state, as it was found. I somehow still cannot decide (re the handle). As far as the origin is concerned, the seller told me it was allegedly from Crete ... Autonomous Cretan state was founded in 1898, so it may be written in "osmanli" ?? I think, that, except of what you said, there could also be two signs, which could spek for Crete - the shape of handle (shape of the pommel + shape of the lead collar) and (I feel it so) the shape of the blade. But you are right - the engraving is "yataganish" ......

25th February 2016, 03:09 PM	#2
Rashka Vatnik Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 4	Form of the blade is not Cretan.

27th February 2016, 06:25 PM	#4
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Thank you Emanuel, Rashka and Ariel for your comments. Islamic 1301 is equal 1884 Gregorian. That time Crete was under the Ottoman Empiry (I apologize if I am wrong). I think that determinant for the place of use is the style of the handle (more or less generally). Could it be, that it was produced by Turkish artisan in Crete ? (I think there is written Ali on the blade, but this still nobody confirmed ...) Regards, Martin

27th February 2016, 07:01 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Obviously, it was produced by a Muslim artisan. Whether his workshop was located in Izmir, Sarajevo or Chania cannot be determined. But when we are talking about Cretan knives, we mean a very different thing. Surely, it was influenced by the Ottoman progenitor, but Christian Cretan Greeks modified it extensively and created their own very specific style. And I cannot see any evidence of it in your example.

27th February 2016, 08:36 PM	#6
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Maybe the shape of the handle and the collar ? I spent 3 years in Turkey and I did not see asuch handle here, except one in Izmir