When in India "died" wootz?

ariel · 25th February 2016, 12:06 AM

I contacted Kirill Rivkin and asked him about Anosov's bulat. Kirill inspected Hermitage collection and many other collections of Anosov's blades and has first-hand knowledge.
Here is his e-mail:
__________________________________________________ ________
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 3:38 PM
To: Barkan, Ariel
Attachments:

Anosov claimed that he reproduced 11 different types of Bulat patterns;
the problem is that his definition of what each pattern means is very
different from what we tend to use today. For example, there is a sword in
Tsarskoe Selo collection which is signed "Amal Taban" which was held by
many as the definition of Taban pattern. However, this blade is not even
wootz; in fact most likely its a Georgian imitation of Assad Allah. During
Anosov's time the definition of wootz was very wide; he personally
included Japanese swords in this class, as well as many swords that were
classified in old Russian records as "red bulat" - but which today most
would not consider to be wootz. But even today people there are still
arguments, at the core of which is how separate are the terms "crucible
steel" and wootz. If we are to include some very basic crucible steel
patterns as wootz, then practically all Sheffield cutlery is wootz, it
just needs lots of acid, etc. If we are to concentrate of first class
Persian+ patterns from XVIIIth century as the "standard" of wootz, then it
is a much more narrow field.
Regarding the production of Zlatoust bulat, including those specifically
signed as Anosov's bulat, almost all was done in 1841-1845, i.e. a
relatively short time period. It is very low contrast (actually mechanical
damascus ones from the same period are much more showy), with relatively
short, straight lines (typically longer on higher quality swords, but
approaching "salt and pepper" on lower end stuff). Sometimes the lines are
curving a little. It is not that similar to what we would consider to be a
true Persian Taban today.

__________________________________________________ ______-

In view of this information obtained from a knowledgeable professional, quotations from Anosov's works as well as re-tellings of Anosov's testimonials by other people become highly questionable and cannot be relied upon.

Thus, actual documented examples of his "bulat" need to be seen by our own eyes.

mahratt · 25th February 2016, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

For example, there is a sword in Tsarskoe Selo collection which is signed "Amal Taban" which was held by many as the definition of Taban pattern. However, this blade is not even wootz; in fact most likely its a Georgian imitation of Assad Allah.

Ariel, thank you very much for the message from Kirill Rivkin. It is very interesting. Kirill has sent you a photo of the sword from the Hermitage? Or is he simply expressed his opinion?

Rashka Vatnik · 25th February 2016, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Ariel, thank you very much for the message from Kirill Rivkin. It is very interesting. Kirill has sent you a photo of the sword from the Hermitage? Or is he simply expressed his opinion?

Kirill Rivkin is right!

mahratt · 25th February 2016, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rashka Vatnik

Kirill Rivkin is right!

Please forgive me. You might quote fragments of works Anosov, which confirm the words of Kirill Rivkin. Thank you in advance.

estcrh · 25th February 2016, 03:59 PM

It is unfortunate that images of the blades that Anosov made are not available to see. Ann Feuerbach did get to see one of his blades.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach

FYI, I have held the blade that Anosov made for Faraday. It had a light sham-like pattern, however, the blade was overcleaned and that may be why the pattern was faint and only visable near the handle.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th February 2016, 05:39 PM

Salaams All,

This ladder decoration is the highest decorative form of any blade in this sphere...It is called Kirk Narduban. I have seen some interesting descriptions of such fine work several of which are signed Assad Allah e.g. from http://armsandantiques.com Quote"The blade is forged from deep and rich kirk narduban forged wootz with a hardened dark edge and overlaid with koftgari decoration signed Assaddulah, likely apocryphal, though the quality of the wootz and the forging is an indication of a highly skilled smith".Unquote.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Kirk...sm=93&ie=UTF-8

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 25th February 2016, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

It is unfortunate that images of the blades that Anosov made are not available to see. Ann Feuerbach did get to see one of his blades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach
FYI, I have held the blade that Anosov made for Faraday. It had a light sham-like pattern, however, the blade was overcleaned and that may be why the pattern was faint and only visable near the handle.

Yet another example of Sham-like pattern.
Any Tabans or Khorasans? :-)))

estcrh · 25th February 2016, 07:42 PM

Another reference about creating a specific pattern by manipulating the crucible steel blade blank during forging.

25th February 2016, 05:39 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All, This ladder decoration is the highest decorative form of any blade in this sphere...It is called Kirk Narduban. I have seen some interesting descriptions of such fine work several of which are signed Assad Allah e.g. from http://armsandantiques.com Quote"The blade is forged from deep and rich kirk narduban forged wootz with a hardened dark edge and overlaid with koftgari decoration signed Assaddulah, likely apocryphal, though the quality of the wootz and the forging is an indication of a highly skilled smith".Unquote. https://www.google.com/search?q=Kirk...sm=93&ie=UTF-8 Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th February 2016 at 05:50 PM.

25th February 2016, 07:42 PM	#8
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Another reference about creating a specific pattern by manipulating the crucible steel blade blank during forging. Attached Images Last edited by estcrh; 25th February 2016 at 08:18 PM.

25th February 2016, 12:06 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I contacted Kirill Rivkin and asked him about Anosov's bulat. Kirill inspected Hermitage collection and many other collections of Anosov's blades and has first-hand knowledge. Here is his e-mail: __________________________________________________ ________ Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 3:38 PM To: Barkan, Ariel Attachments: Anosov claimed that he reproduced 11 different types of Bulat patterns; the problem is that his definition of what each pattern means is very different from what we tend to use today. For example, there is a sword in Tsarskoe Selo collection which is signed "Amal Taban" which was held by many as the definition of Taban pattern. However, this blade is not even wootz; in fact most likely its a Georgian imitation of Assad Allah. During Anosov's time the definition of wootz was very wide; he personally included Japanese swords in this class, as well as many swords that were classified in old Russian records as "red bulat" - but which today most would not consider to be wootz. But even today people there are still arguments, at the core of which is how separate are the terms "crucible steel" and wootz. If we are to include some very basic crucible steel patterns as wootz, then practically all Sheffield cutlery is wootz, it just needs lots of acid, etc. If we are to concentrate of first class Persian+ patterns from XVIIIth century as the "standard" of wootz, then it is a much more narrow field. Regarding the production of Zlatoust bulat, including those specifically signed as Anosov's bulat, almost all was done in 1841-1845, i.e. a relatively short time period. It is very low contrast (actually mechanical damascus ones from the same period are much more showy), with relatively short, straight lines (typically longer on higher quality swords, but approaching "salt and pepper" on lower end stuff). Sometimes the lines are curving a little. It is not that similar to what we would consider to be a true Persian Taban today. __________________________________________________ ______- In view of this information obtained from a knowledgeable professional, quotations from Anosov's works as well as re-tellings of Anosov's testimonials by other people become highly questionable and cannot be relied upon. Thus, actual documented examples of his "bulat" need to be seen by our own eyes.