When in India "died" wootz?

[Emanuel]

Have a read through what the fiery beards are saying on crucible steel :
http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/inde...howtopic=18364

And what I meant about the pattern visible in the cake, pre-forging out.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Have a read through what the fiery beards are saying on crucible steel :
http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/inde...howtopic=18364

And what I meant about the pattern visible in the cake, pre-forging out.

Emanual, there does seem to be a pattern there, heres what appears to be the whole process from crucible to ingot to yatagan blade with a detail view of the pattern created.

"Indian methode" by Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili.

[ariel]

Good example. His wootz patterns are unsurpassable.
Once again, it shows the importance of the forging process: minute and pretty "mechanical" dendrites of the ingot are transformed into a complex pattern easily comparable to the best Persian examples.

Obviously, Anosov lacked this ability.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by ariel

Good example. His wootz patterns are unsurpassable.

Ariel, what this opinion is based on?
As shown earlier in this post, some images of antique wootz were allegedly mixed in the context of modern production and associated with Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili. I think some are too quick to attribute them as produced by the person whose name appears next to the images. To me it is unclear what these close-ups refer to: a restored original blade, a sample of true wootz from another antique blade, or indeed a newly-made blade by Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili.
The patterns Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili produced, at least what I saw thus far, are of Anosov-like, non-wootz type. Are there any viably convincing sample(s) of his work, besides random snaps of "some wootz", that show real modern wootz pattern produced by him?
How sure are you that the 2 yataghan blades and close-up of Kirk-narduban/ zig-zag pattern were forged by Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili?

[ariel]

Alex,

The only info I have is how they are presented on his site.
If the best he could do was "Anosov-like" bulat, I will be disappointed. But there are some examples that are clearly a part of the overall story, from ingot to final product. If true, they are astonishing. I have no direct knowledge to doubt the veracity of his examples that are openly published and discussed by other individuals working with him.

BTW, how do you like Kirill's story of Anosov's bulat?

[ALEX]

Ariel,
I can tell you with certainty, that Kirk-Narduban/Zig-Zag pattern is not newly made. The image is of genuine antique wootz blade.
I also saw these images on Internet bearing Zaqro Nonikashvili name, for whatever reasons: comparison, showing objects of restoration, etc. The same goes for another wootz pattern shown on the same panel, "mistakenly" attributing it to Mr. Nonikashvili. He's very good and talented restorer, and some images of wootz blades he restored got mixed with the notion that he forged them.

As for King Erekle shamshir, I am not convinced that the blade is newly made. I believe the old wootz blade was used, polished and inlaid, and the rest was skillfully recreated. Perhaps someone can prove me wrong.

I liked Kirill's write-up about Anosov's bulat (and also his new book - an outstanding work!). Seeing some of Anosov's works personally, Kirill's thesis makes a great deal of sense and credibility, especially the differences of perceptions of wootz and its qualities of ours and Anosov's times, as well as realistic assessment of Anosov's patterns. Totally agree with everything Kirill said.

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by ariel

Once again, it shows the importance of the forging process: minute and pretty "mechanical" dendrites of the ingot are transformed into a complex pattern...

Other way around Ariel. The dendritic pattern is the chemical structure of the ingot right out of smelting. The Persian pattern is the result of mechanical stretching and deformation of the basis dendritic pattern.

Re-reading Jeff Pringle and other smiths, a lot of crucible steel-like material will exhibit the dendritic structure. it can be deformed and made to look like what we would call wootz. Recall the "mill ball" discussions.

Here is an excerpt from Jeff Pringle's explanation in that thread.

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

My definition of ‘wootz’ is: a simple carbon steel with over ~1.3% carbon, forged in such a way as to have banded carbide structures. (Others have slightly different definitions). This takes into account that we understand how to make wootz now, so the old definition is no longer sufficient. The classic ‘wootz’ pattern (how those old swords look) can be made from almost any dendritic steel, and perhaps in some cases from regular hi-carbon barstock, but with those materials the bands are not always saturated with iron carbides.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Other way around Ariel. The dendritic pattern is the chemical structure of the ingot right out of smelting. The Persian pattern is the result of mechanical stretching and deformation of the basis dendritic pattern.

That's exactly what I meant. Sorry if it sounded confusing :-(((((