Help needed identifying shamshir wootz blade

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd February 2016, 04:45 PM

[QUOTE=ariel]Ibrahiim,
Do you have any idea why would swordmakers in Iran call their brand of quality "Assadullah Isfaghani"? Did they just pick this moniker out of a thin air?

Usually, the titles of highest achievements carry names of remarkable individuals that were instrumental in financing the award ( Nobel Prize, Wolf Prize ) or themselves were examples of excellence in a relevant field ( Tchaikovsky or Chopin piano competitions, Lombardi Super Bowl trophy, Fields Award in mathematics , Olivier in acting etc.)[/QUOTE
.................................................. .................................................. ....

Salaams Ariel, Yes I do. Assad Allah was a prominent folk hero in Persian lore whilst Ali known in Shi ite Iran as Assad Allah holds a position of paramount importance. Naturally both these names would be held in great esteem supporting the reasoned arguement..that these names were honorary or Iconic and allowed to create an illusion, some would say a mark of excellence...and my meaning is contained in both... on this signed blade story.
I have to say that I remain skeptical as to the actual possibility of a real person being at the sword making point faced with the mountain of evidence to the contrary..."Is it a mysterious smith or a mysterious myth" ?

Much of the above detail is drawn from http://auctionsimperial.com/om-the-p...f-assad-allah/ which sets down a very comprehensive arguement in favour of the somewhat mythical aspect of the signatures on the blades.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 23rd February 2016, 05:33 PM

Ibrahiim,
Yes, I know what Assadulla means and I have read Khorasani's book.
But why specifically Isfaghani? :-)
The very same name serving as a signature on Shah Abbas' swords, the very same name as in the "helmet" affair, the very same name mentioned as a father of Kalbeali...

My point is that there was such a real person, and after his death his name began to serve as a mark of quality and distinction. Nothing contradicting the later role, but somebody must have earned the original fame.

mahratt · 23rd February 2016, 08:17 PM

Isfahan was the capital of Persia. There is nothing surprising in the fact that the inscription "Isfahan" was put on the blades.

If we continue the analogy ... "Isfahan" could be the second part of the brand. How is that "Rolex" - the Swiss watch quality. It is unlikely that someone will buy watches "Rolex", if they are to be written, "Chinese quality"

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2016, 09:43 PM

mahratt - why not 'Omega or some other Swiss watch names'?

I find Ariels question quite resonable.

mahratt · 23rd February 2016, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

mahratt - why not 'Omega or some other Swiss watch names'?

I find Ariels question quite resonable.

Jens, and what more iconic "brands" for the sword in the Islamic world than "The Lion of Allah", you can name?

In Spain, there were other "brands", except "Toledo", but if we talk about Spanish blades, it is the "Toledo" remember in the first place.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th February 2016, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahiim,
Yes, I know what Assadulla means and I have read Khorasani's book.
But why specifically Isfaghani? :-)
The very same name serving as a signature on Shah Abbas' swords, the very same name as in the "helmet" affair, the very same name mentioned as a father of Kalbeali...

My point is that there was such a real person, and after his death his name began to serve as a mark of quality and distinction. Nothing contradicting the later role, but somebody must have earned the original fame.

Salaams Ariel. I never querried if you knew Assad Allahs name nor did I ask if you had read Khorasanis book...nor would I since your knowledge in this field is respected ...Why would I ask that?...

The discussion is whether or not these people were real sword smiths...or associated with the making of the swords?...

Other than the actual signatures there is no proof so far. I don't think there was any question of anyone being tricked or fooled by this since it was simply a badge of distinction and quality only. Further more if there was such a person or persons and they were prolific in churning out swords where is the historic evidence...anecdotal proof, facts or anything to point to real time people ...not Icons of the Persian Psyche...

I quote from LA Mayer who quipped Quote "The number of swords bearing the name Assad Allah is legion, so much so that it is difficult to resist the temptation to say that of the 300 swords of which he could have made during his lifetime at least 500 have found their way to Western collections alone". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

23rd February 2016, 04:45 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	[QUOTE=ariel]Ibrahiim, Do you have any idea why would swordmakers in Iran call their brand of quality "Assadullah Isfaghani"? Did they just pick this moniker out of a thin air? Usually, the titles of highest achievements carry names of remarkable individuals that were instrumental in financing the award ( Nobel Prize, Wolf Prize ) or themselves were examples of excellence in a relevant field ( Tchaikovsky or Chopin piano competitions, Lombardi Super Bowl trophy, Fields Award in mathematics , Olivier in acting etc.)[/QUOTE .................................................. .................................................. .... Salaams Ariel, Yes I do. Assad Allah was a prominent folk hero in Persian lore whilst Ali known in Shi ite Iran as Assad Allah holds a position of paramount importance. Naturally both these names would be held in great esteem supporting the reasoned arguement..that these names were honorary or Iconic and allowed to create an illusion, some would say a mark of excellence...and my meaning is contained in both... on this signed blade story. I have to say that I remain skeptical as to the actual possibility of a real person being at the sword making point faced with the mountain of evidence to the contrary..."Is it a mysterious smith or a mysterious myth" ? Much of the above detail is drawn from http://auctionsimperial.com/om-the-p...f-assad-allah/ which sets down a very comprehensive arguement in favour of the somewhat mythical aspect of the signatures on the blades. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 23rd February 2016 at 05:03 PM.

23rd February 2016, 05:33 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ibrahiim, Yes, I know what Assadulla means and I have read Khorasani's book. But why specifically Isfaghani? :-) The very same name serving as a signature on Shah Abbas' swords, the very same name as in the "helmet" affair, the very same name mentioned as a father of Kalbeali... My point is that there was such a real person, and after his death his name began to serve as a mark of quality and distinction. Nothing contradicting the later role, but somebody must have earned the original fame.

23rd February 2016, 08:17 PM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Isfahan was the capital of Persia. There is nothing surprising in the fact that the inscription "Isfahan" was put on the blades. If we continue the analogy ... "Isfahan" could be the second part of the brand. How is that "Rolex" - the Swiss watch quality. It is unlikely that someone will buy watches "Rolex", if they are to be written, "Chinese quality"

23rd February 2016, 09:43 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	mahratt - why not 'Omega or some other Swiss watch names'? I find Ariels question quite resonable.