When in India "died" wootz?

[mahratt]

Anosov received high quality wootz in a factory scale. Bulat (wootz) producted, blades - forged. Here is their description: "The tracery wootz are small, dark background - Taban"; "Large tracery wootz - Kara-Khorasan"; "Explicit patterns and large - Kara-Taban". Wootz steel production at the Zlatoust arms factory was massive. No wonder that Paul Petrovich Anosov in 1841 in preparation for printing his essay "On the Bulat" abandoned old Asian names, and introduced a new - "Russian Bulat (wootz)".

In Zlatoust weapon factory owned wootz steel forging technology, were able to properly temper the metal. Finished blades has a surprisingly high resistance and elasticity.

In 1839, its wootz weapons exhibited in St. Petersburg. Russian Bulat (wootz) gets great reviews at the third Moscow manufactory exhibition in 1843. Blades of Anosov Bulat (wootz) we tried to buy in collection of rich collectors of weapons of the 19th century.

Excellent reviews can be heard on all sides. For example, in 1851 at an exhibition in London exhibited Anosov wootz blades.

It is known that personally Anosov was made more than two dozen blades sabre and a plurality of blades knife of the Russian damask steel with excellent designs and Khorasan Kara-Taban. The fate of most of them is still unknown. Previously, a fairly complete collection was kept in the Hermitage, but now there is only one sword (Kara-taban) - Grand Duke Mikhail Pavlovich.

Once in 1847, Pavel Petrovich Anosov leaves the production plant in Zlatoust damask steel is sharply reduced. An indispensable assistant in smelting wootz Anosov was a master, Nikolai Shvetsov. After retiring Anosov he continued to producted wootz, but he was secretive man, and passed the secret of its manufacture only the eldest of his four sons (also, incidentally, worked as a blacksmith in Zlatoust), Pavel Shvetsov.
In the 1850s, damask steel Zlatoust has made only by special order. This is attributed to the fact that at that time started a broad campaign for casting artillery barrels, to which all industrial reserves of the country were thrown.

[ariel]

I would love to see a documented Anosov's blade with Taban or Khorasan pattern. In the absence of such, quotations from popular magazines carry very little value.

Not for nothing he presented his creations as "Russian bulat" instead of specific names. All of them that I know were of a simple Sham structure.

[Emanuel]

Verhoeven always merits a re-read

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...even-9809.html

[Jim McDougall]

Ariel, I must thank you for the detailed and well explained perspective on the obviously very complex circumstances of wootz and the many variations of its product blades.
Mahratt, I also thank you for the interesting perspective that you present on Anasov as well.
As someone who has studied weapons as long as I have, it is really a great pleasure to finally have a grasp of this complicated subject matter in at least much better degree.

What I truly appreciate is the inherent knowledge of the history and scientifically oriented substance on these subjects displayed by you guys as well as Estcrh, Emanuel and Kronckew.......I admire that very much.

While most of this data seems historically stable, there do seem to be some differences in the perceived nature of the blades in the type of patterns produced etc especially as concerns the profoundly important work of Mr. Anasov.

While these differences seem to be inconclusively determined, especially as these are mostly no longer available, or as it seems, several had been with further examination pending, these factors of course would be subject to varying views depending on the reviewer.

What is most beneficial to myself and other readers as these things are discussed, is the well thought out and presented views as seen here, which give us excellent perspective and supportive evidence for all sides.

It does seem almost metaphoric as these discussions are in essence being forged much as the blades, and being crafted in sort of the same way.
Fascinating!

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

I would love to see a documented Anosov's blade with Taban or Khorasan pattern. In the absence of such, quotations from popular magazines carry very little value.

Not for nothing he presented his creations as "Russian bulat" instead of specific names. All of them that I know were of a simple Sham structure.

I do not support reading popular magazines and books published today. I prefer to read historical sources. So I read Anosov and what he wrote about his work. I think there is no doubt in the words Anosova?

I understand that many in the forum do not speak Russian, so I give the translation, the selected phrase:

1) etching on the plate (wootz) were large curls (tracery), "Kara-Khorasan". Another experiment was repeated with a simple iron. The same result was obtained. Resulting in a small plate wootz was also a "Kara-Khorasan".

2) Get the "Taban" (think about it, "Kara-Taban") with medium curls (tracery) and a dark background.

[Jens Nordlunde]

mahratt,
I am wondering why you use space on Vikingsword with Russian texts, whom only a handful of the members can read - maybe. If you want to quote thise texts, you should translate them to English - which is the language on this forum - or leave them out.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

mahratt,
I am wondering why you use space on Vikingsword with Russian texts, whom only a handful of the members can read - maybe. If you want to quote thise texts, you should translate them to English - which is the language on this forum - or leave them out.

Jens, forgive me. I do not blame that Anosov wrote in Russian and not English. I posted here page Anosova authentic work, that there was no doubt that I give precise citations (rather than data from popular magazines).

At the same time, I specifically gave at the beginning of the translation. Once again, I apologize

[ariel]

I have shown pictures of 2 Anosov's blades: both are Sham.
Any PICTURES of documented Anosov's blades with Taban or Khorasan?
Nothing less than that will suffice.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

I have shown pictures of 2 Anosov's blades: both are Sham.
Any PICTURES of documented Anosov's blades with Taban or Khorasan?
Nothing less than that will suffice.

I showed pages of authentic books Anosov of wootz (1841). I hope no one will argue that Anosov - written with no errors? (He understood the wootz) At the same time, I did not say that did not Anosov damask blades of Wootz steel such as "Sham". There were more than other blades. But did Anosov and "Kara-Khorasan" and "Taban".

On one blade of the "Kara-Khorasan" had 10-20 blades from "Sham". Can someone show 10 blades Anosova? I think the analogy is clear? Blades Anosov save too little. But Hermitage has blade Anosov of wootz steel "Kara Khorasan". Anyone can go to St. Petersburg and look at this blade.

[Jim McDougall]

The excellent entries continue, and Mahratt thank you for adding the translated captions to the Russian sources you provide.
However, you and Ariel are digressing from the theme of the thread.

As I have stated I am enjoying learning more about wootz, but while I think we have properly saluted Pavel Anosov for his outstanding contributions to bulat, I believe we can leave behind the business about which type of blades were produced by him.

Perhaps you and Ariel might find a way to return to the wootz topic beyond the Anosov fixation ?

Thanks again for the great entries outside this digression, and I think the conflicting views as I noted, give good perspective which might be pursued outside this discussion.

[Emanuel]

Here is an excerpt from Ann Feuerbach's "Damascus Steel and Crucible Steel in Central Asia" American Society of Arms Collectors Bulletin 82.

The microstructure indicated that this was a high-carbon steel which was slowly cooled. Electron probe micro- analysis indicated that it contained small amounts of other elements, including manganese. This is significant because one of the most famous Damascus patterns is called Kara Khorasan (black Khorasan). In order to form this pattern, the original bulat needed to be high-carbon steel with specific impurities that was slowly cooled.

p.38

After many experiments with different plants and other carbon-containing substances, he [Anosov] concluded that the form of the carbon was unimportant but the amount of carbon in the steel was crucial...He concluded that steel should be pure in order to produce a pattern. This we now know to be true up to a certain point, but we also know that trace elements are necessary (Verhoeven et al., 1998, pp. 58-64), but these need to be present in an amount which Anosov was not able to detect. He studied the effect of titanium, manganese, silicon, chromium, silver, gold, aluminum

and platinum. While performing these studies of alloys, he independently concluded that silicon effects the formation of graphite, that chromium increases the hardness and improves the finish and discovered the effects of other alloying elements....Anosov also discussed the characteristics of the shrinking phenomenon and the necessity of slow cooling for crystal growth as well as the necessity of repeated forging at low temperatures and the different methods of producing different patterns. Textual, archaeological, ethnographic and modern replication evidence shows that these methods can produce steel with a Damascus pattern. Anosov succeeded in producing Damascus steel swords with the characteristic pattern and properties, including swords that could cut silk in the air and bend to a 90 angle and spring back with no apparent structural damage...Anosov only lived long enough to publish an abridged version of his research. This paper, "On the Bulat", was published in the Russian Gorny Journal in 1841 and was translated into French and German in 1843

p.40

So the ore would have been important to the extent that it included trace amounts of manganese, silicon, phosphorus and other elements. These trace elements facilitated the creation of the dark bands seen in Kara Khorasan pattern. Greg Obach experimented with steels with trace quantities of these elements. See his results and decide if it's Khorasan or not

Simplistically then, we're discussing a base dendritic pattern in a high-carbon steel that is the result of the metal smelting process, through more or less slow cooling of a crucible charge heated to mostly liquid phase.

This is followed by a mechanical deformation of this pattern through the forging process, either by fullering, or grinding/cutting grooves into the blade. The grooves are flattened, resulting in the Mohamed's Ladder pattern. The same fullering process would be used on a homogeneous plain steel blade, you just don't get any pattern.

I guess the original Ladder pattern was simply the by-product of the drawing out process of the cake to a bar that could become a blade. A fuller may have been used at first to move the metal, while later grooves might have been cut into the bar on purpose to expose deeper layers and accentuate the patterns.

As far as I'm concerned then, Anosov understood the first step, producing the high-carbon crucible steel with visible pattern. He may not have known which trace elemental amounts were most effective at producing the darker contrast bands due to the technical limitations of his age.

Whether or not Anosov replicated the precise mechanical deformation in the second step is irrelevant to me. Modern smiths now understand both steps pretty well. Does the "secret" of whether you should strike the blade 40 times this way as opposed to 50 times the other way really matter?