When in India "died" wootz?

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2016, 02:17 AM

It sounds to me like Pavel Anosov (1796-1851) was primarily involved in research on the technology of crucible steel creating bulat/wootz while he was working at Zlatoust. The apparently highly regarded swords that were created using his findings in creating bulat were not only regarded as examples of 'fine art' but superior in their combat performance vs. those with steel from Solingen, Toledo and London .

From what I read he found four ways of producing the bulat steel, including direct reduction from ore; decarburization of cast iron with iron oxide; melting cast steel into mold and reacting iron and carbon in crucible.
As, again, I am not a metallurgist I would note only that these do not seem to include 'forging'.

Yet the bulat steel blades used with his processes seem profoundly highly regarded, and as 'art', so I miss the point on any deficiency regarding his not knowing how to forge the steel. Apparantly he made some blades himself for some of the more prominent researchers also engaged in wootz studies, and those were also highly regarded.

Also it seems that the noted detractions in his research material were apparently deliberate as he was guarding the secrets of his discoveries, which were indeed 'lost' again for a time after his death.

It certainly sounds like his blades, and research were highly regarded, and again most interesting to learn more about the bulat history. I had heard of it before but was not sure of connections in the wootz matters.

ariel · 22nd February 2016, 03:09 AM

Jim,
Anosov shoud be honored for his re-discovery of the process of obtaining raw wootz material and his insight that it should be forged at low temperatures. However, he simply did not have access to the old "recipe" of forging complex patterns ( akin to Taban/Khorasan). In his defence, only one of the contemporary wootz smiths is capable of doing it, and doing it with long blades.

There is a lot of information on Anosov's blades in the new book by Kirill Rivkin. He also characterizes them as pretty simple .

AFAIK, his blades were never produced for mass use or export; he made only a few examples. I am unaware of his blades being used as fighting implements anywhere in the world.

He published his report in 1841, but was transferred as a governor to Tomsk in 1847, where he could not continue his work.

After his departure production of bulat in Zlatoust has stopped: his instructions about the process were deliberately brief and incomplete. A couple of workers in Zlatoust who actually did the job, produced a small number of blades, and then it was just like in India and Iran: skill transfer stopped and the secret was lost again.

As an example of Anosov's bulat ( wootz) work, here is his famous hunting knife that he presented to British geologist Murchison who visited Zlatoust.
It was sold at Sothebys (?) for something like 50,000 GBP ( I might be wrong here, but the sum was obscenely high)

Another one is his shashka: look at the pattern, pretty coarse and simple.

It is bulat, no doubt, but in the best possible case it is Sham.

mahratt · 22nd February 2016, 08:54 AM

Anosov received high quality wootz in a factory scale. Bulat (wootz) producted, blades - forged. Here is their description: "The tracery wootz are small, dark background - Taban"; "Large tracery wootz - Kara-Khorasan"; "Explicit patterns and large - Kara-Taban". Wootz steel production at the Zlatoust arms factory was massive. No wonder that Paul Petrovich Anosov in 1841 in preparation for printing his essay "On the Bulat" abandoned old Asian names, and introduced a new - "Russian Bulat (wootz)".

In Zlatoust weapon factory owned wootz steel forging technology, were able to properly temper the metal. Finished blades has a surprisingly high resistance and elasticity.

In 1839, its wootz weapons exhibited in St. Petersburg. Russian Bulat (wootz) gets great reviews at the third Moscow manufactory exhibition in 1843. Blades of Anosov Bulat (wootz) we tried to buy in collection of rich collectors of weapons of the 19th century.

Excellent reviews can be heard on all sides. For example, in 1851 at an exhibition in London exhibited Anosov wootz blades.

It is known that personally Anosov was made more than two dozen blades sabre and a plurality of blades knife of the Russian damask steel with excellent designs and Khorasan Kara-Taban. The fate of most of them is still unknown. Previously, a fairly complete collection was kept in the Hermitage, but now there is only one sword (Kara-taban) - Grand Duke Mikhail Pavlovich.

Once in 1847, Pavel Petrovich Anosov leaves the production plant in Zlatoust damask steel is sharply reduced. An indispensable assistant in smelting wootz Anosov was a master, Nikolai Shvetsov. After retiring Anosov he continued to producted wootz, but he was secretive man, and passed the secret of its manufacture only the eldest of his four sons (also, incidentally, worked as a blacksmith in Zlatoust), Pavel Shvetsov.
In the 1850s, damask steel Zlatoust has made only by special order. This is attributed to the fact that at that time started a broad campaign for casting artillery barrels, to which all industrial reserves of the country were thrown.

ariel · 22nd February 2016, 12:15 PM

I would love to see a documented Anosov's blade with Taban or Khorasan pattern. In the absence of such, quotations from popular magazines carry very little value.

Not for nothing he presented his creations as "Russian bulat" instead of specific names. All of them that I know were of a simple Sham structure.

Emanuel · 22nd February 2016, 02:21 PM

Verhoeven always merits a re-read

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...even-9809.html

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2016, 05:23 PM

Ariel, I must thank you for the detailed and well explained perspective on the obviously very complex circumstances of wootz and the many variations of its product blades.
Mahratt, I also thank you for the interesting perspective that you present on Anasov as well.
As someone who has studied weapons as long as I have, it is really a great pleasure to finally have a grasp of this complicated subject matter in at least much better degree.

What I truly appreciate is the inherent knowledge of the history and scientifically oriented substance on these subjects displayed by you guys as well as Estcrh, Emanuel and Kronckew.......I admire that very much.

While most of this data seems historically stable, there do seem to be some differences in the perceived nature of the blades in the type of patterns produced etc especially as concerns the profoundly important work of Mr. Anasov.

While these differences seem to be inconclusively determined, especially as these are mostly no longer available, or as it seems, several had been with further examination pending, these factors of course would be subject to varying views depending on the reviewer.

What is most beneficial to myself and other readers as these things are discussed, is the well thought out and presented views as seen here, which give us excellent perspective and supportive evidence for all sides.

It does seem almost metaphoric as these discussions are in essence being forged much as the blades, and being crafted in sort of the same way.
Fascinating!

mahratt · 22nd February 2016, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I would love to see a documented Anosov's blade with Taban or Khorasan pattern. In the absence of such, quotations from popular magazines carry very little value.

Not for nothing he presented his creations as "Russian bulat" instead of specific names. All of them that I know were of a simple Sham structure.

I do not support reading popular magazines and books published today. I prefer to read historical sources. So I read Anosov and what he wrote about his work. I think there is no doubt in the words Anosova?

I understand that many in the forum do not speak Russian, so I give the translation, the selected phrase:

1) etching on the plate (wootz) were large curls (tracery), "Kara-Khorasan". Another experiment was repeated with a simple iron. The same result was obtained. Resulting in a small plate wootz was also a "Kara-Khorasan".

2) Get the "Taban" (think about it, "Kara-Taban") with medium curls (tracery) and a dark background.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd February 2016, 09:31 PM

mahratt,
I am wondering why you use space on Vikingsword with Russian texts, whom only a handful of the members can read - maybe. If you want to quote thise texts, you should translate them to English - which is the language on this forum - or leave them out.

mahratt · 22nd February 2016, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

mahratt,
I am wondering why you use space on Vikingsword with Russian texts, whom only a handful of the members can read - maybe. If you want to quote thise texts, you should translate them to English - which is the language on this forum - or leave them out.

Jens, forgive me. I do not blame that Anosov wrote in Russian and not English. I posted here page Anosova authentic work, that there was no doubt that I give precise citations (rather than data from popular magazines).

At the same time, I specifically gave at the beginning of the translation. Once again, I apologize

ariel · 22nd February 2016, 09:47 PM

I have shown pictures of 2 Anosov's blades: both are Sham.
Any PICTURES of documented Anosov's blades with Taban or Khorasan?
Nothing less than that will suffice.

22nd February 2016, 03:09 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, Anosov shoud be honored for his re-discovery of the process of obtaining raw wootz material and his insight that it should be forged at low temperatures. However, he simply did not have access to the old "recipe" of forging complex patterns ( akin to Taban/Khorasan). In his defence, only one of the contemporary wootz smiths is capable of doing it, and doing it with long blades. There is a lot of information on Anosov's blades in the new book by Kirill Rivkin. He also characterizes them as pretty simple . AFAIK, his blades were never produced for mass use or export; he made only a few examples. I am unaware of his blades being used as fighting implements anywhere in the world. He published his report in 1841, but was transferred as a governor to Tomsk in 1847, where he could not continue his work. After his departure production of bulat in Zlatoust has stopped: his instructions about the process were deliberately brief and incomplete. A couple of workers in Zlatoust who actually did the job, produced a small number of blades, and then it was just like in India and Iran: skill transfer stopped and the secret was lost again. As an example of Anosov's bulat ( wootz) work, here is his famous hunting knife that he presented to British geologist Murchison who visited Zlatoust. It was sold at Sothebys (?) for something like 50,000 GBP ( I might be wrong here, but the sum was obscenely high) Another one is his shashka: look at the pattern, pretty coarse and simple. It is bulat, no doubt, but in the best possible case it is Sham. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 22nd February 2016 at 04:13 AM.

22nd February 2016, 02:17 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	It sounds to me like Pavel Anosov (1796-1851) was primarily involved in research on the technology of crucible steel creating bulat/wootz while he was working at Zlatoust. The apparently highly regarded swords that were created using his findings in creating bulat were not only regarded as examples of 'fine art' but superior in their combat performance vs. those with steel from Solingen, Toledo and London . From what I read he found four ways of producing the bulat steel, including direct reduction from ore; decarburization of cast iron with iron oxide; melting cast steel into mold and reacting iron and carbon in crucible. As, again, I am not a metallurgist I would note only that these do not seem to include 'forging'. Yet the bulat steel blades used with his processes seem profoundly highly regarded, and as 'art', so I miss the point on any deficiency regarding his not knowing how to forge the steel. Apparantly he made some blades himself for some of the more prominent researchers also engaged in wootz studies, and those were also highly regarded. Also it seems that the noted detractions in his research material were apparently deliberate as he was guarding the secrets of his discoveries, which were indeed 'lost' again for a time after his death. It certainly sounds like his blades, and research were highly regarded, and again most interesting to learn more about the bulat history. I had heard of it before but was not sure of connections in the wootz matters.

22nd February 2016, 08:54 AM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Anosov received high quality wootz in a factory scale. Bulat (wootz) producted, blades - forged. Here is their description: "The tracery wootz are small, dark background - Taban"; "Large tracery wootz - Kara-Khorasan"; "Explicit patterns and large - Kara-Taban". Wootz steel production at the Zlatoust arms factory was massive. No wonder that Paul Petrovich Anosov in 1841 in preparation for printing his essay "On the Bulat" abandoned old Asian names, and introduced a new - "Russian Bulat (wootz)". In Zlatoust weapon factory owned wootz steel forging technology, were able to properly temper the metal. Finished blades has a surprisingly high resistance and elasticity. In 1839, its wootz weapons exhibited in St. Petersburg. Russian Bulat (wootz) gets great reviews at the third Moscow manufactory exhibition in 1843. Blades of Anosov Bulat (wootz) we tried to buy in collection of rich collectors of weapons of the 19th century. Excellent reviews can be heard on all sides. For example, in 1851 at an exhibition in London exhibited Anosov wootz blades. It is known that personally Anosov was made more than two dozen blades sabre and a plurality of blades knife of the Russian damask steel with excellent designs and Khorasan Kara-Taban. The fate of most of them is still unknown. Previously, a fairly complete collection was kept in the Hermitage, but now there is only one sword (Kara-taban) - Grand Duke Mikhail Pavlovich. Once in 1847, Pavel Petrovich Anosov leaves the production plant in Zlatoust damask steel is sharply reduced. An indispensable assistant in smelting wootz Anosov was a master, Nikolai Shvetsov. After retiring Anosov he continued to producted wootz, but he was secretive man, and passed the secret of its manufacture only the eldest of his four sons (also, incidentally, worked as a blacksmith in Zlatoust), Pavel Shvetsov. In the 1850s, damask steel Zlatoust has made only by special order. This is attributed to the fact that at that time started a broad campaign for casting artillery barrels, to which all industrial reserves of the country were thrown.

22nd February 2016, 12:15 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would love to see a documented Anosov's blade with Taban or Khorasan pattern. In the absence of such, quotations from popular magazines carry very little value. Not for nothing he presented his creations as "Russian bulat" instead of specific names. All of them that I know were of a simple Sham structure.

22nd February 2016, 02:21 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Verhoeven always merits a re-read http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...even-9809.html

22nd February 2016, 05:23 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Ariel, I must thank you for the detailed and well explained perspective on the obviously very complex circumstances of wootz and the many variations of its product blades. Mahratt, I also thank you for the interesting perspective that you present on Anasov as well. As someone who has studied weapons as long as I have, it is really a great pleasure to finally have a grasp of this complicated subject matter in at least much better degree. What I truly appreciate is the inherent knowledge of the history and scientifically oriented substance on these subjects displayed by you guys as well as Estcrh, Emanuel and Kronckew.......I admire that very much. While most of this data seems historically stable, there do seem to be some differences in the perceived nature of the blades in the type of patterns produced etc especially as concerns the profoundly important work of Mr. Anasov. While these differences seem to be inconclusively determined, especially as these are mostly no longer available, or as it seems, several had been with further examination pending, these factors of course would be subject to varying views depending on the reviewer. What is most beneficial to myself and other readers as these things are discussed, is the well thought out and presented views as seen here, which give us excellent perspective and supportive evidence for all sides. It does seem almost metaphoric as these discussions are in essence being forged much as the blades, and being crafted in sort of the same way. Fascinating!

22nd February 2016, 09:31 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	mahratt, I am wondering why you use space on Vikingsword with Russian texts, whom only a handful of the members can read - maybe. If you want to quote thise texts, you should translate them to English - which is the language on this forum - or leave them out.

22nd February 2016, 09:47 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have shown pictures of 2 Anosov's blades: both are Sham. Any PICTURES of documented Anosov's blades with Taban or Khorasan? Nothing less than that will suffice.