When in India "died" wootz?

estcrh · 21st February 2016, 05:04 PM

Microstructure of Steels and Cast Irons, Madeleine Durand-Charre, 2013

ariel · 21st February 2016, 06:23 PM

The issue of inherent ingot patterns and the final blade patterns was discussed extensively on a Russian forum with professional bladesmiths, including the "dean" of Rusiian blademakers, Mr. Leonid Arkhangelsky. According to them, there is no doubt that the inherent structure is important, but only a true master is capable of creating complicated patterns seen on Persian and later Indian blades.

Only Persians with their secret tricks of forging were able to create rich and complicated patterns like Taban or Khorasan.. Indian masters were using a different technique: their hallmark was the "salt-and-pepper" pattern in which dendrites were crushed into small spheroidal segments. After ~17th century there was an inflow of Persian masters into India, and the patterns of Indian blades switched to the complicated Persian examples. Syrian pattern is well-known as Shams: low-contrast, short, almost straight lines.

They all used the same Indian ingots, but the final results were different.

Why?

As bladesmiths told me it all likely depended on the technique of forging: turning the billet in a predetermined way to create twisted patterns of dendrites, keeping the pounding in the same position/direction for the Shams, or beating the hell out of it to obtain the Indian "crystalline" wootz. And on top of it, heating the billet to a certain color between forgings was also crucial.

Even on the same blade one can see different patterns: even the best Taban blades always have almost "shams-y" pattern close to the edge, the result of more vigorous pounding in one direction.

And that is what happens now: metallurgists can make beautiful wootz ingots with a pattern indistinguishable from the old Indian ones, but the bladesmiths do not have secret "protocols of forging" that were worked out over multiple generations by Persian masters.

Anosov figured out how to make wootz ingots, but his blades had coarse and simple pattern: he did not know how to forge his material.

And that is the real secret of wootz.

Emanuel · 21st February 2016, 08:45 PM

No Eric, of course I am not suggesting that.

My apologies as I am no smith and all I write is based on what I've learned from others. What I have been saying again and again is that the fine watery pattern seen on wootz metal is a result of the initial smelting process. Yes the pattern can be modified mechanically through forging of the cake/ingot/billet into a bar or blade, or whatever at a later stage. The point is that if the smelting process was successful, the basic pattern will be there in the cake as soon as you remove it from the crucible. Temperature control and correct charging of the crucible seem to be the critical factors to getting a good quality steel with a pattern.

The forging process is a separate thing altogether. Temperature control is again key to maintain small grain in the material. Large grain will make it brittle. The process for forging a wootz vs. non-wootz billet will be similar but the range of temperature a wootz billet will take is smaller since the pattern breaks down at higher temperatures. A bladesmith that does not know these temperature constraints will ruin the fine wootz pattern no matter what he does.

Here is a nice summary of the process from Greg Obach, who is also on this forum.
http://users.unitz.ca/gthomas/myweb4...n_of_wootz.htm

mahratt · 21st February 2016, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Anosov figured out how to make wootz ingots, but his blades had coarse and simple pattern: he did not know how to forge his material.

And that is the real secret of wootz.

It is a common misconception. There is information that the blades of wootz steel Anosov, very appreciated in the Orient (at local residents).

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2016, 02:17 AM

It sounds to me like Pavel Anosov (1796-1851) was primarily involved in research on the technology of crucible steel creating bulat/wootz while he was working at Zlatoust. The apparently highly regarded swords that were created using his findings in creating bulat were not only regarded as examples of 'fine art' but superior in their combat performance vs. those with steel from Solingen, Toledo and London .

From what I read he found four ways of producing the bulat steel, including direct reduction from ore; decarburization of cast iron with iron oxide; melting cast steel into mold and reacting iron and carbon in crucible.
As, again, I am not a metallurgist I would note only that these do not seem to include 'forging'.

Yet the bulat steel blades used with his processes seem profoundly highly regarded, and as 'art', so I miss the point on any deficiency regarding his not knowing how to forge the steel. Apparantly he made some blades himself for some of the more prominent researchers also engaged in wootz studies, and those were also highly regarded.

Also it seems that the noted detractions in his research material were apparently deliberate as he was guarding the secrets of his discoveries, which were indeed 'lost' again for a time after his death.

It certainly sounds like his blades, and research were highly regarded, and again most interesting to learn more about the bulat history. I had heard of it before but was not sure of connections in the wootz matters.

ariel · 22nd February 2016, 03:09 AM

Jim,
Anosov shoud be honored for his re-discovery of the process of obtaining raw wootz material and his insight that it should be forged at low temperatures. However, he simply did not have access to the old "recipe" of forging complex patterns ( akin to Taban/Khorasan). In his defence, only one of the contemporary wootz smiths is capable of doing it, and doing it with long blades.

There is a lot of information on Anosov's blades in the new book by Kirill Rivkin. He also characterizes them as pretty simple .

AFAIK, his blades were never produced for mass use or export; he made only a few examples. I am unaware of his blades being used as fighting implements anywhere in the world.

He published his report in 1841, but was transferred as a governor to Tomsk in 1847, where he could not continue his work.

After his departure production of bulat in Zlatoust has stopped: his instructions about the process were deliberately brief and incomplete. A couple of workers in Zlatoust who actually did the job, produced a small number of blades, and then it was just like in India and Iran: skill transfer stopped and the secret was lost again.

As an example of Anosov's bulat ( wootz) work, here is his famous hunting knife that he presented to British geologist Murchison who visited Zlatoust.
It was sold at Sothebys (?) for something like 50,000 GBP ( I might be wrong here, but the sum was obscenely high)

Another one is his shashka: look at the pattern, pretty coarse and simple.

It is bulat, no doubt, but in the best possible case it is Sham.

mahratt · 22nd February 2016, 08:54 AM

Anosov received high quality wootz in a factory scale. Bulat (wootz) producted, blades - forged. Here is their description: "The tracery wootz are small, dark background - Taban"; "Large tracery wootz - Kara-Khorasan"; "Explicit patterns and large - Kara-Taban". Wootz steel production at the Zlatoust arms factory was massive. No wonder that Paul Petrovich Anosov in 1841 in preparation for printing his essay "On the Bulat" abandoned old Asian names, and introduced a new - "Russian Bulat (wootz)".

In Zlatoust weapon factory owned wootz steel forging technology, were able to properly temper the metal. Finished blades has a surprisingly high resistance and elasticity.

In 1839, its wootz weapons exhibited in St. Petersburg. Russian Bulat (wootz) gets great reviews at the third Moscow manufactory exhibition in 1843. Blades of Anosov Bulat (wootz) we tried to buy in collection of rich collectors of weapons of the 19th century.

Excellent reviews can be heard on all sides. For example, in 1851 at an exhibition in London exhibited Anosov wootz blades.

It is known that personally Anosov was made more than two dozen blades sabre and a plurality of blades knife of the Russian damask steel with excellent designs and Khorasan Kara-Taban. The fate of most of them is still unknown. Previously, a fairly complete collection was kept in the Hermitage, but now there is only one sword (Kara-taban) - Grand Duke Mikhail Pavlovich.

Once in 1847, Pavel Petrovich Anosov leaves the production plant in Zlatoust damask steel is sharply reduced. An indispensable assistant in smelting wootz Anosov was a master, Nikolai Shvetsov. After retiring Anosov he continued to producted wootz, but he was secretive man, and passed the secret of its manufacture only the eldest of his four sons (also, incidentally, worked as a blacksmith in Zlatoust), Pavel Shvetsov.
In the 1850s, damask steel Zlatoust has made only by special order. This is attributed to the fact that at that time started a broad campaign for casting artillery barrels, to which all industrial reserves of the country were thrown.

ariel · 22nd February 2016, 12:15 PM

I would love to see a documented Anosov's blade with Taban or Khorasan pattern. In the absence of such, quotations from popular magazines carry very little value.

Not for nothing he presented his creations as "Russian bulat" instead of specific names. All of them that I know were of a simple Sham structure.

21st February 2016, 05:04 PM	#1
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Microstructure of Steels and Cast Irons, Madeleine Durand-Charre, 2013 Attached Images

21st February 2016, 06:23 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The issue of inherent ingot patterns and the final blade patterns was discussed extensively on a Russian forum with professional bladesmiths, including the "dean" of Rusiian blademakers, Mr. Leonid Arkhangelsky. According to them, there is no doubt that the inherent structure is important, but only a true master is capable of creating complicated patterns seen on Persian and later Indian blades. Only Persians with their secret tricks of forging were able to create rich and complicated patterns like Taban or Khorasan.. Indian masters were using a different technique: their hallmark was the "salt-and-pepper" pattern in which dendrites were crushed into small spheroidal segments. After ~17th century there was an inflow of Persian masters into India, and the patterns of Indian blades switched to the complicated Persian examples. Syrian pattern is well-known as Shams: low-contrast, short, almost straight lines. They all used the same Indian ingots, but the final results were different. Why? As bladesmiths told me it all likely depended on the technique of forging: turning the billet in a predetermined way to create twisted patterns of dendrites, keeping the pounding in the same position/direction for the Shams, or beating the hell out of it to obtain the Indian "crystalline" wootz. And on top of it, heating the billet to a certain color between forgings was also crucial. Even on the same blade one can see different patterns: even the best Taban blades always have almost "shams-y" pattern close to the edge, the result of more vigorous pounding in one direction. And that is what happens now: metallurgists can make beautiful wootz ingots with a pattern indistinguishable from the old Indian ones, but the bladesmiths do not have secret "protocols of forging" that were worked out over multiple generations by Persian masters. Anosov figured out how to make wootz ingots, but his blades had coarse and simple pattern: he did not know how to forge his material. And that is the real secret of wootz. Last edited by ariel; 21st February 2016 at 06:55 PM.

22nd February 2016, 03:09 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, Anosov shoud be honored for his re-discovery of the process of obtaining raw wootz material and his insight that it should be forged at low temperatures. However, he simply did not have access to the old "recipe" of forging complex patterns ( akin to Taban/Khorasan). In his defence, only one of the contemporary wootz smiths is capable of doing it, and doing it with long blades. There is a lot of information on Anosov's blades in the new book by Kirill Rivkin. He also characterizes them as pretty simple . AFAIK, his blades were never produced for mass use or export; he made only a few examples. I am unaware of his blades being used as fighting implements anywhere in the world. He published his report in 1841, but was transferred as a governor to Tomsk in 1847, where he could not continue his work. After his departure production of bulat in Zlatoust has stopped: his instructions about the process were deliberately brief and incomplete. A couple of workers in Zlatoust who actually did the job, produced a small number of blades, and then it was just like in India and Iran: skill transfer stopped and the secret was lost again. As an example of Anosov's bulat ( wootz) work, here is his famous hunting knife that he presented to British geologist Murchison who visited Zlatoust. It was sold at Sothebys (?) for something like 50,000 GBP ( I might be wrong here, but the sum was obscenely high) Another one is his shashka: look at the pattern, pretty coarse and simple. It is bulat, no doubt, but in the best possible case it is Sham. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 22nd February 2016 at 04:13 AM.

21st February 2016, 08:45 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	No Eric, of course I am not suggesting that. My apologies as I am no smith and all I write is based on what I've learned from others. What I have been saying again and again is that the fine watery pattern seen on wootz metal is a result of the initial smelting process. Yes the pattern can be modified mechanically through forging of the cake/ingot/billet into a bar or blade, or whatever at a later stage. The point is that if the smelting process was successful, the basic pattern will be there in the cake as soon as you remove it from the crucible. Temperature control and correct charging of the crucible seem to be the critical factors to getting a good quality steel with a pattern. The forging process is a separate thing altogether. Temperature control is again key to maintain small grain in the material. Large grain will make it brittle. The process for forging a wootz vs. non-wootz billet will be similar but the range of temperature a wootz billet will take is smaller since the pattern breaks down at higher temperatures. A bladesmith that does not know these temperature constraints will ruin the fine wootz pattern no matter what he does. Here is a nice summary of the process from Greg Obach, who is also on this forum. http://users.unitz.ca/gthomas/myweb4...n_of_wootz.htm

22nd February 2016, 02:17 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	It sounds to me like Pavel Anosov (1796-1851) was primarily involved in research on the technology of crucible steel creating bulat/wootz while he was working at Zlatoust. The apparently highly regarded swords that were created using his findings in creating bulat were not only regarded as examples of 'fine art' but superior in their combat performance vs. those with steel from Solingen, Toledo and London . From what I read he found four ways of producing the bulat steel, including direct reduction from ore; decarburization of cast iron with iron oxide; melting cast steel into mold and reacting iron and carbon in crucible. As, again, I am not a metallurgist I would note only that these do not seem to include 'forging'. Yet the bulat steel blades used with his processes seem profoundly highly regarded, and as 'art', so I miss the point on any deficiency regarding his not knowing how to forge the steel. Apparantly he made some blades himself for some of the more prominent researchers also engaged in wootz studies, and those were also highly regarded. Also it seems that the noted detractions in his research material were apparently deliberate as he was guarding the secrets of his discoveries, which were indeed 'lost' again for a time after his death. It certainly sounds like his blades, and research were highly regarded, and again most interesting to learn more about the bulat history. I had heard of it before but was not sure of connections in the wootz matters.

22nd February 2016, 08:54 AM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Anosov received high quality wootz in a factory scale. Bulat (wootz) producted, blades - forged. Here is their description: "The tracery wootz are small, dark background - Taban"; "Large tracery wootz - Kara-Khorasan"; "Explicit patterns and large - Kara-Taban". Wootz steel production at the Zlatoust arms factory was massive. No wonder that Paul Petrovich Anosov in 1841 in preparation for printing his essay "On the Bulat" abandoned old Asian names, and introduced a new - "Russian Bulat (wootz)". In Zlatoust weapon factory owned wootz steel forging technology, were able to properly temper the metal. Finished blades has a surprisingly high resistance and elasticity. In 1839, its wootz weapons exhibited in St. Petersburg. Russian Bulat (wootz) gets great reviews at the third Moscow manufactory exhibition in 1843. Blades of Anosov Bulat (wootz) we tried to buy in collection of rich collectors of weapons of the 19th century. Excellent reviews can be heard on all sides. For example, in 1851 at an exhibition in London exhibited Anosov wootz blades. It is known that personally Anosov was made more than two dozen blades sabre and a plurality of blades knife of the Russian damask steel with excellent designs and Khorasan Kara-Taban. The fate of most of them is still unknown. Previously, a fairly complete collection was kept in the Hermitage, but now there is only one sword (Kara-taban) - Grand Duke Mikhail Pavlovich. Once in 1847, Pavel Petrovich Anosov leaves the production plant in Zlatoust damask steel is sharply reduced. An indispensable assistant in smelting wootz Anosov was a master, Nikolai Shvetsov. After retiring Anosov he continued to producted wootz, but he was secretive man, and passed the secret of its manufacture only the eldest of his four sons (also, incidentally, worked as a blacksmith in Zlatoust), Pavel Shvetsov. In the 1850s, damask steel Zlatoust has made only by special order. This is attributed to the fact that at that time started a broad campaign for casting artillery barrels, to which all industrial reserves of the country were thrown.

22nd February 2016, 12:15 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would love to see a documented Anosov's blade with Taban or Khorasan pattern. In the absence of such, quotations from popular magazines carry very little value. Not for nothing he presented his creations as "Russian bulat" instead of specific names. All of them that I know were of a simple Sham structure.