When in India "died" wootz?

kronckew · 17th February 2016, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Why reduce everything to absurdity? I understand that the topic may seem silly. For example, when there are no serious arguments confirming that damask stopped producing in the mid-19th century

...

other than a large number of 'damascus' steel blades produced for presentation swords in europe and russia from then thru now, which are datable or dated and recipients named on the blades that cam be traced.

i think the subject has become exhausted & should be itself stopped before it gets out of hand by getting too personal. the level of proof other than anecdotal seems insufficient for some. so be it.

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2016, 07:34 PM

It seems to me that this genuinely interesting topic has been pretty well examined in the posts in this thread, and while there are of course no 'finite' answers, there have been quite a few constructive and thought provoking perspectives added.
I think the only 'silliness' that has permeated the thread is in the seemingly inevitable frustration and personal retorts that have been placed. It is, at least in my view, always disappointing to see persons with remarkable knowledge and intelligence resort to such less than worthy remarks.

It seems obvious to me that just as with the assimilation of various cultural or ethnographic groups into others, i.e. the so called 'disappearance of the Anasazi's in the American Southwest, it is virtually impossible to set any exact date or even period for many such events or circumstances, including the 'disappearance of wootz'.

I think primarily what Mahratt is looking for is documented note regarding the production of wootz in various contemporary sources, and here has been hoping for a more international cross section of such resources.

Even with my admittedly meager understanding of metallurgy itself, the wootz issue notwithstanding, it seems odd to me that this apparently quite mysterious skill could simply vanish, and in a relatively narrow window of time.

It does seem that in some reading I recall (I believe in Pant) it was noted that often in India, there were issues with blades being too brittle, and thus the attraction to more durable European blades. This in addition to the increasing colonial and trade incursions brought large volumes of these blades into the Indian sphere.

The beauty of wootz of course remained an attraction for specialty blades relegated more to high end weapons, but for the volume of arms produced for general use, the trade blades and their native counterparts became the norm.

I think we all know that reliance on dates and similar marks, inscriptions etc on blades cannot be accepted as irrefutable evidence without further corroboration as the commemorative placement of these not to mention entire weapon forms is a constant with anything as traditional as edged weapons.

I think it best for participants to struggle to focus on subject matter without personal barbed comments, and if anyone lacks the forbearance to enact that skill, or if the content of the discussion is simply too much to handle...simply don't continue to read or enter. Its actually quite simple.

Meanwhile, if anyone can locate passages from various works which address wootz production with specification of dates and or locales I think such information would be most helpful.

mahratt · 17th February 2016, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Meanwhile, if anyone can locate passages from various works which address wootz production with specification of dates and or locales I think such information would be most helpful.

Jim, thanks for a reasonable word.

estcrh · 17th February 2016, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems to me that this genuinely interesting topic has been pretty well examined in the posts in this thread, ...........................

I think primarily what Mahratt is looking for is documented note regarding the production of wootz in various contemporary sources, and here has been hoping for a more international cross section of such resources.................................

I think it best for participants to struggle to focus on subject matter without personal barbed comments, and if anyone lacks the forbearance to enact that skill, or if the content of the discussion is simply too much to handle...simply don't continue to read or enter. Its actually quite simple...................

Meanwhile, if anyone can locate passages from various works which address wootz production with specification of dates and or locales I think such information would be most helpful.

Jim, I was thinking the same thing and couldnt have said it better myself. Having information and sources from several different people all in one thread will be a great help to anyone with an interest in this subject, there is absolutely no need for sarcasm and degrading remarks, if anyone thinks this thread is to long, or it is silly etc that can simply ignore it, anyone who thinks they have something to add can do that, this is how a forum works.

ariel · 18th February 2016, 11:26 AM

I agree. This discussion reached an impasse. The question in the form it was asked is unanswerable, because everyone agrees that no precise date or even year of wootz disappearance is ever going to be established. And that's the best we can come up with. Flogging a dead horse is never productive.

I am done. Whoever wants to continue digging further is more than welcome and good luck to him. If actual examples are posted , they may be open to factual critique, but the general discussion is over. At least for me.

mahratt · 18th February 2016, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I agree. This discussion reached an impasse. The question in the form it was asked is unanswerable, because everyone agrees that no precise date or even year of wootz disappearance is ever going to be established. And that's the best we can come up with. Flogging a dead horse is never productive.

I am done. Whoever wants to continue digging further is more than welcome and good luck to him. If actual examples are posted , they may be open to factual critique, but the general discussion is over. At least for me.

Thank you, ariel. Your opinion about the "dead horses" clear

I understand that you do not have the facts of the historical sources (mid-late 19th century) that in the middle of the 19th century wootz - disappeared.

ariel · 18th February 2016, 01:09 PM

No sense putting words I never said in my mouth.
But if you wish to think so, I am not going to stand in your way. This is a free country , and you are entitled to keeping and voicing your opinion. Full speed ahead:-)

mahratt · 18th February 2016, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

No sense putting words I never said in my mouth.
But if you wish to think so, I am not going to stand in your way. This is a free country , and you are entitled to keeping and voicing your opinion. Full speed ahead:-)

Why this verbal swordplay?

I have no doubt that you have read a lot of old sources in English. If you have evidence of your words of wootz - I'll be glad to hear.

mahratt · 17th February 2016, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

other than a large number of 'damascus' steel blades produced for presentation swords in europe and russia from then thru now, which are datable or dated and recipients named on the blades that cam be traced.

I apologize. As I write in bad English, I use "Google translator" that to write faster. A "Google Translator" translates all the time, "bulat" (wootz) as "Damascus". Unfortunately, I was not attentive. And it is not corrected in the text in one place the word "damasak".
We had to write a "wootz". Of course, I am talking only about the "wootz".

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

i think the subject has become exhausted & should be itself stopped before it gets out of hand by getting too personal. the level of proof other than anecdotal seems insufficient for some. so be it.

May I ask what level of evidence is considered serious?
1) There are several mentions Russian travelers (including Ethnographer) and officers in Persia and Central Asia (Bukhara) in the middle of the 19th century (1850-ies) - produced wootz and make the wootz blades.
2) Wootz sabers in Russian museums, which were made in the years 1860-1880.
3) is no reason to stop the production of Damascus steel in the middle of the 19th century in Persia and Bukhara. This, of course, the weakest argument. But he is at the same level as the arguments alleging that the wootz disappeared by the middle of the 19th century.

Of course, if there is no evidence that the wootz in the middle of the 19th century has disappeared (excluding the circumstantial "evidence", which already sounded), the topic has exhausted itself.

17th February 2016, 07:34 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	It seems to me that this genuinely interesting topic has been pretty well examined in the posts in this thread, and while there are of course no 'finite' answers, there have been quite a few constructive and thought provoking perspectives added. I think the only 'silliness' that has permeated the thread is in the seemingly inevitable frustration and personal retorts that have been placed. It is, at least in my view, always disappointing to see persons with remarkable knowledge and intelligence resort to such less than worthy remarks. It seems obvious to me that just as with the assimilation of various cultural or ethnographic groups into others, i.e. the so called 'disappearance of the Anasazi's in the American Southwest, it is virtually impossible to set any exact date or even period for many such events or circumstances, including the 'disappearance of wootz'. I think primarily what Mahratt is looking for is documented note regarding the production of wootz in various contemporary sources, and here has been hoping for a more international cross section of such resources. Even with my admittedly meager understanding of metallurgy itself, the wootz issue notwithstanding, it seems odd to me that this apparently quite mysterious skill could simply vanish, and in a relatively narrow window of time. It does seem that in some reading I recall (I believe in Pant) it was noted that often in India, there were issues with blades being too brittle, and thus the attraction to more durable European blades. This in addition to the increasing colonial and trade incursions brought large volumes of these blades into the Indian sphere. The beauty of wootz of course remained an attraction for specialty blades relegated more to high end weapons, but for the volume of arms produced for general use, the trade blades and their native counterparts became the norm. I think we all know that reliance on dates and similar marks, inscriptions etc on blades cannot be accepted as irrefutable evidence without further corroboration as the commemorative placement of these not to mention entire weapon forms is a constant with anything as traditional as edged weapons. I think it best for participants to struggle to focus on subject matter without personal barbed comments, and if anyone lacks the forbearance to enact that skill, or if the content of the discussion is simply too much to handle...simply don't continue to read or enter. Its actually quite simple. Meanwhile, if anyone can locate passages from various works which address wootz production with specification of dates and or locales I think such information would be most helpful. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 17th February 2016 at 08:35 PM.

18th February 2016, 11:26 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I agree. This discussion reached an impasse. The question in the form it was asked is unanswerable, because everyone agrees that no precise date or even year of wootz disappearance is ever going to be established. And that's the best we can come up with. Flogging a dead horse is never productive. I am done. Whoever wants to continue digging further is more than welcome and good luck to him. If actual examples are posted , they may be open to factual critique, but the general discussion is over. At least for me.

18th February 2016, 01:09 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No sense putting words I never said in my mouth. But if you wish to think so, I am not going to stand in your way. This is a free country , and you are entitled to keeping and voicing your opinion. Full speed ahead:-)