Malaysian matchlock musket (satinggar espingarda)

Cathey · 17th February 2016, 07:41 AM

Hi Fernando and Phillip

My talk is scheduled for Friday the 4th of March, I still have plenty of time to ass to it thank goodness.

Thank you Phillip for the background information you have provided. Whilst I have a reasonable library I have found it difficult to gather much information on this particular musket. As I have said I am really a sword enthusiast and my knowledge of firearms is very limited. At least now when I get up to speak I can say more than this is a decorative gun from our collection and I think its from Malaysia.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

estcrh · 17th February 2016, 07:43 AM

Cathey and Rex, if you get chance can you post the weight of your gun, thanks.

Philip · 17th February 2016, 07:55 AM

Cathey,
Buttstocks on these Malay guns come in two basic shapes. One is like yours, essentially flat-ended. You see a variation of this style on guns from central and southern Vietnam as well. The other has a contour with, as you describe, circular cutouts. This has some similarity to some (not all) Japanese and Korean stocks.

On the Malay matchlocks, there are noticeable differences in the style of decoration on the brass parts, between examples displaying the two buttstock variations. There may be a regional factor, since the stylistic differences are pretty consistent. Try as I might, to date I've not been able to find any publication which analyzes these variations and tries to pin them down to any specific areas in the archipelago.

fernando · 17th February 2016, 12:44 PM

Great input, Philip.
It is so good when we call for the Cavalry and it gets there in no time

.

fernando · 17th February 2016, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

... At least now when I get up to speak I can say more than this is a decorative gun from our collection and I think its from Malaysia...

And you may also tell them that the term ESPINGARDA is still the name currently used in portuguese for shoulder guns

.

Cathey · 21st February 2016, 05:43 AM

Hi Philip and Fernando

Thanks for your continuing assistance. We have just weighed the gun and it has come in at 4.7kg. Heavier than I thought it would be.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Cathey · 21st February 2016, 06:30 AM

Hi Philip,

I was wondering if you had any thoughts about the age of this particular gun, I thought perhaps 18th to early 19th Century?

Cheers Cathey and Rex

fernando · 21st February 2016, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

... I was wondering if you had any thoughts about the age of this particular gun, I thought perhaps 18th to early 19th Century?...

Ah, this takes a real expert; maybe Philip is able to discern that, judging by the photos and not having it in hand.
The thing is that, contrary to Western weapons, Eastern models may go on for centuries maintaning the same characteristics; thus their age may not be attributed by their design but by subtle details, like finishing perfection and other such details.

Philip · 21st February 2016, 10:39 PM

Cathey,
I have a Malay gun of the same "model" as yours, same stock profile and style of decoration. It's a monster:
Weight 11.76 lb , approx. 5.88 kg
Caliber 16.5 mm, approx. .62 in
Barrel thickness across flats at breech 32 mm (almost 2x bore diameter)
Overall length 61.75 in., approx. 155 cm

The point of balance is 68 cm from the end of the buttplate, this is where the piece sits level if rested on a block at that very point. I am of average height and have been shooting all kinds of rifles since I was a kid, and even a bigger guy than I am will have trouble keeping aim from a standing position because most peoples' arms aren't long enough to reach the balance point and simultaneously support the weight of the gun. Imagine how much trouble a people of shorter and lighter build like most Malays would have!

So clearly the dimensions of these guns makes them most unsuitable for hunting, especially in tropical rainforests. Another thing, the heavy serpentines coupled with the weakness of the brass mainsprings make for an extremely slow lock time after the trigger releases the sear. Positively sluggish! Most game animals wouldn't hang around that long.

In the paucity of written references on these guns, I recall seeing some mention of these being fired from some kind of support, possibly for defensive purposes. Can't recall the title and author at moment, unfortunately. But it makes sense considering how massive these things are. The extremely thick barrel walls at the breech probably mean that a really heavy powder charge can be accommodated, far more than would be safe in a lighter hunting gun. Were these intended for shot, or ball? Hard to say. My example has no sights, so hard to imagine any utility with a solid projectile. If a gun like this were loaded to the max with buckshot, and fired at attackers from atop a palisade, it would be in its element for sure.

For comparison purposes, I have 2 other specimens, of different buttstock shapes and deco style. One has the flaring butt that you compared with Japanese style gunstocks, that's almost as heavy as the piece I'm discussing here and it too has no sights. The other one is longer but a good deal lighter and and aimable, and it has a foresight in the form of a little tube at the muzzle, but no backsight.

It's conceivable that these mega-muskets did play the same tactical role as "gingals" did in Burma, India, and China (and the corresponding "fusils de rempart" or "Wallbüchsen" in Europe), supplementing the artillery. Recall that the Malay Archipelago was famous for its "lantaka" cannon, those bronze swivel cannon which were based on Portuguese and Dutch prototypes.

Cathey · 26th February 2016, 02:35 AM

Hi Guys

I have finally thought to measure parts of the gun to give you an idea of its size as well as weight. It is slightly shorter than Phillips example.

Weight 4.7 kg
Overall Length 59 5/8” 151.5 cm
Barrel length 48 ½ “123.3 cm
Stock length 11 1/8” 28.4 cm
Lock plate 10” 25.5 cm
Butt width 3 1/8” 8 cm

Cheers Cathey and Rex

estcrh · 21st February 2016, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Philip and Fernando

Thanks for your continuing assistance. We have just weighed the gun and it has come in at 4.7kg. Heavier than I thought it would be.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

4.7 kg. or 10.36 lb., that is a heavy gun, thanks for the weight.

fernando · 21st February 2016, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

4.7 kg. or 10.36 lb., that is a heavy gun, thanks for the weight.

Yes, heavy and surely long; probably around 170 cms.
Although the term 'satinggar' itself is a corruption of portuguese 'espingarda', some sources pretend that such corruption comes 'espingardão' which means large espingarda; however this is questionable, not only for the term construction but also because 'espingardão' is the name attributed to an even larger and sturdier gun, often used for defence, its barrel resting on (fortification) walls, due to its dimension.
This to say that, in any case, the dimensions of the type in discussion, although being a 'portable' gun, would easy call for a resting fork when in assault or the mentioned wall when used in defence. Maybe Philip could have a say on this issue.

17th February 2016, 07:55 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	buttstock shapes Cathey, Buttstocks on these Malay guns come in two basic shapes. One is like yours, essentially flat-ended. You see a variation of this style on guns from central and southern Vietnam as well. The other has a contour with, as you describe, circular cutouts. This has some similarity to some (not all) Japanese and Korean stocks. On the Malay matchlocks, there are noticeable differences in the style of decoration on the brass parts, between examples displaying the two buttstock variations. There may be a regional factor, since the stylistic differences are pretty consistent. Try as I might, to date I've not been able to find any publication which analyzes these variations and tries to pin them down to any specific areas in the archipelago.

21st February 2016, 05:43 AM	#6
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Weight of the gun Hi Philip and Fernando Thanks for your continuing assistance. We have just weighed the gun and it has come in at 4.7kg. Heavier than I thought it would be. Cheers Cathey and Rex

21st February 2016, 06:30 AM	#7
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Age of this example Hi Philip, I was wondering if you had any thoughts about the age of this particular gun, I thought perhaps 18th to early 19th Century? Cheers Cathey and Rex

21st February 2016, 10:39 PM	#9
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	data on a comparable example Cathey, I have a Malay gun of the same "model" as yours, same stock profile and style of decoration. It's a monster: Weight 11.76 lb , approx. 5.88 kg Caliber 16.5 mm, approx. .62 in Barrel thickness across flats at breech 32 mm (almost 2x bore diameter) Overall length 61.75 in., approx. 155 cm The point of balance is 68 cm from the end of the buttplate, this is where the piece sits level if rested on a block at that very point. I am of average height and have been shooting all kinds of rifles since I was a kid, and even a bigger guy than I am will have trouble keeping aim from a standing position because most peoples' arms aren't long enough to reach the balance point and simultaneously support the weight of the gun. Imagine how much trouble a people of shorter and lighter build like most Malays would have! So clearly the dimensions of these guns makes them most unsuitable for hunting, especially in tropical rainforests. Another thing, the heavy serpentines coupled with the weakness of the brass mainsprings make for an extremely slow lock time after the trigger releases the sear. Positively sluggish! Most game animals wouldn't hang around that long. In the paucity of written references on these guns, I recall seeing some mention of these being fired from some kind of support, possibly for defensive purposes. Can't recall the title and author at moment, unfortunately. But it makes sense considering how massive these things are. The extremely thick barrel walls at the breech probably mean that a really heavy powder charge can be accommodated, far more than would be safe in a lighter hunting gun. Were these intended for shot, or ball? Hard to say. My example has no sights, so hard to imagine any utility with a solid projectile. If a gun like this were loaded to the max with buckshot, and fired at attackers from atop a palisade, it would be in its element for sure. For comparison purposes, I have 2 other specimens, of different buttstock shapes and deco style. One has the flaring butt that you compared with Japanese style gunstocks, that's almost as heavy as the piece I'm discussing here and it too has no sights. The other one is longer but a good deal lighter and and aimable, and it has a foresight in the form of a little tube at the muzzle, but no backsight. It's conceivable that these mega-muskets did play the same tactical role as "gingals" did in Burma, India, and China (and the corresponding "fusils de rempart" or "Wallbüchsen" in Europe), supplementing the artillery. Recall that the Malay Archipelago was famous for its "lantaka" cannon, those bronze swivel cannon which were based on Portuguese and Dutch prototypes.

26th February 2016, 02:35 AM	#10
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Vital statistics Hi Guys I have finally thought to measure parts of the gun to give you an idea of its size as well as weight. It is slightly shorter than Phillips example. Weight 4.7 kg Overall Length 59 5/8” 151.5 cm Barrel length 48 ½ “123.3 cm Stock length 11 1/8” 28.4 cm Lock plate 10” 25.5 cm Butt width 3 1/8” 8 cm Cheers Cathey and Rex

17th February 2016, 07:41 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Hi Fernando and Phillip My talk is scheduled for Friday the 4th of March, I still have plenty of time to ass to it thank goodness. Thank you Phillip for the background information you have provided. Whilst I have a reasonable library I have found it difficult to gather much information on this particular musket. As I have said I am really a sword enthusiast and my knowledge of firearms is very limited. At least now when I get up to speak I can say more than this is a decorative gun from our collection and I think its from Malaysia. Cheers Cathey and Rex

17th February 2016, 07:43 AM	#2
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Cathey and Rex, if you get chance can you post the weight of your gun, thanks.

17th February 2016, 12:44 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Great input, Philip. It is so good when we call for the Cavalry and it gets there in no time .