When in India "died" wootz?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

(especially now since it is possible through of modern technology, when many old books became available)

This is quite true, the amount of information available online now is amazing. You never know what you will find simply by reading older texts. I am sure some more wootz related material will be found this way.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

This is quite true, the amount of information available online now is amazing. You never know what you will find simply by reading older texts. I am sure some more wootz related material will be found this way.

I am sure more info might be available. However, the veracity of each snippet will never be proven. The general idea is well known: plenty of wootz dated to 18 century, much fewer examples after ~ 1850, singular examples by the end of 19 century ( all of dubious dating), virtually none even at the beginning of 20 century.

It just petered out.....

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

I am sure more info might be available. However, the veracity of each snippet will never be proven. The general idea is well known: plenty of wootz dated to 18 century, much fewer examples after ~ 1850, singular examples by the end of 19 century ( all of dubious dating), virtually none even at the beginning of 20 century.

It just petered out.....

Dating of wootz blades - very controversial issue. Most of the blades has no exact provenance. And any of us to have a more pleasant thing in the collection of the 18th century rather than the 19th century. And so it was up to us)))

Draw conclusions

The fact that in the middle of the 19th century in Persia did a lot wootz blades (1850). Wootzs blades for the year 1860 - also known. It is strange to assume that in 1870 (for example) wootz blades suddenly stopped doing

[Bob A]

Is it safe, then, to assume that an object made with Wootz steel can be dated as pre-1900, absent any other data?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

I am sure more info might be available. However, the veracity of each snippet will never be proven.

There is a lot to be learned from first hand accounts in period texts. Just like modern books you have to decide what to believe and what not to believe but when an 1800s traveler gives you a window into the world at that particular time period I am grateful that someone at Google has taken the time to digitize it and make it available online for free. I for one am not willing to just completely ignore the information contained in books from this time period, and when you find several different accounts that say basically the same thing you find some level of veracity (accuracy / truth etc).

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I for one am not willing to just completely ignore the information contained in books from this time period, and when you find several different accounts that say basically the same thing you find some level of veracity (accuracy / truth etc).

estcrh, Your words - absolutely true.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

...... when you find several different accounts that say basically the same thing you find some level of veracity (accuracy / truth etc).

Do you have verifiable accounts of wootz manufacture and forging dating to the very end of the 19th century?

Nobody argues about pre-~1850 period, and we are not splitting hair about 1860, 1870 etc. Even epidemics do not stop overnight.

In contrast, there are plenty of wootz blades verifiably dated to the 18th century ( I have one dated twice to 1782 on the blade) and likely even more provenanced ones to that or earlier era. Having cited many sources describing early mass-production of wootz and disappearance of this industry around mid-19th century, you yourself answered the question. As to the 20th century..... The entire "wootz" areal was filled with the Europeans, and there is no mention of the process till independent re-discoveries by Sherby and Verhoeven.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Do you have verifiable accounts of wootz manufacture and forging dating to the very end of the 19th century?

What we believe the very end of the 19th century? 1870? 1880? At this time, wootz blades produced. This is confirmed by the exhibits of the museum with documents.

Originally Posted by ariel

In contrast, there are plenty of wootz blades verifiably dated to the 18th century ( I have one dated twice to 1782 on the blade) and likely even more provenanced ones to that or earlier era.

We need to understand (although any collector would like to think otherwise) that what is written on the blade 1782 does not mean that the blade was made in 1782. For example, everyone knows the cartouches on the wootz blades "Assadula Isfahani." Such cartouches has blades and 18th century, and on the blades of the 19th century. Is it possible for the inscription "Assadula" to say that the blade is required to the 18th century? I think no.

Originally Posted by ariel

Having cited many sources describing early mass-production of wootz and disappearance of this industry around mid-19th century, you yourself answered the question. As to the 20th century..... The entire "wootz" areal was filled with the Europeans, and there is no mention of the process till independent re-discoveries by Sherby and Verhoeven.

"The disappearance of manufacturing wootz steel" describes only contemporary authors and only indirect facts. Maybe I did not see (accidentally missed some post in the topic) a historical source 19 centry, which suggests that the wootz steel production in the mid-19th century has disappeared? I agree that India could this happen. Although ... India - a vast country. And I doubt that anywhere wootz steel production was forgotten.

But over established production of wootz steel (or at least wootz blades) in Persia in the second half of the 19th century, we have the exact facts.

[ariel]

OK, folks!

Why wouldn't we just say that all wootz blades were manufactured at the end of the 19th century and mislabeled by sneaky dealers as being 300-400 years old, and close this silly topic.
Obviously, Mahratt needs something like that to advance yet another Grand Idea of his. I suspect it will be along the lines that Central Asia was a burgeoning hub of wootz production well into 1990's:-)

Facts do not convince him. Let's just make him happy.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

OK, folks!

Why wouldn't we just say that all wootz blades were manufactured at the end of the 19th century and mislabeled by sneaky dealers as being 300-400 years old, and close this silly topic.
Obviously, Mahratt needs something like that to advance yet another Grand Idea of his. I suspect it will be along the lines that Central Asia was a burgeoning hub of wootz production well into 1990's:-)

Facts do not convince him. Let's just make him happy.

Why reduce everything to absurdity? I understand that the topic may seem silly. For example, when there are no serious arguments confirming that damask stopped producing in the mid-19th century

It is clear that many wootz steel blades were made 400, 300 and 200 years ago. But Kirill Rivkin, once said the right idea. He said that we should look at each blade of the complex, not only paying attention to the cartouche on the blade. For example, the 17th century Persian blades is not similar in form to the blades of the 19th century. And cartouche "Assadula" - is not a guarantee that the blade is made in the 17th century

I'm not talking about any ideas, аriel. I demonstrate the facts. And this the facts suggests that the production of wootz blades in Persia did not disappear in the middle of the 19th century (Unlike India). Moreover, it productionis (apparently) not decreased. I understand that the facts are cruel And probably, many It's a shame to know that the blades in their collections are not made in the 18th century, and in the middle or the end of the 19th century. But we're all striving to find the truth. Or not?


I would be pleased to see the facts of the sources of the 19th century, which would say that in the middle of the 19th century wootz disappeared. But why no one shows such historical sources ...