Firangi for comment

ariel · 10th February 2016, 12:59 AM

Here is mine.
A single wide and gently rounded fuller, 2 markings, a "star" and Genoese "jaws"
I would guess we may have a reasonably high degree of certainty that the blade is European.

I always thought that blades with 2 or 3 narrow, deep and rectangular fullers are "local" more likely than not: I have seen a lot of them on North-African and Indian blades. Am I wrong?

estcrh · 10th February 2016, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Here is mine.
A single wide and gently rounded fuller, 2 markings, a "star" and Genoese "jaws"
I would guess we may have a reasonably high degree of certainty that the blade is European.

I always thought that blades with 2 or 3 narrow, deep and rectangular fullers are "local" more likely than not: I have seen a lot of them on North-African and Indian blades. Am I wrong?

Ariel, we know that marks were copied not only by Indian smiths but also by some European smiths, I think it would take someone with a lot of European sword knowledge to help answer both of your questions.

iskender · 11th February 2016, 12:05 AM

IF the blade would be made in india ,would you still call it a firangi? ( i am not a hero loading up pictures ,i still need the help of my kids) as soon as possible i will upload my swords simmilar to the copies allready shown! as till then i can say that european exportblades with 2-3 fullers and realy are genuine european blades (not lookalike copies) have a other tone when you tick them with your fingernails. the wootz -blades sound dull, the others like a bell! (more ore less ,i am not a musician) you must try it out yourself and look if it gives some sense! the blade of ariel could be european from the form ,difficult to say when you are not a clairvoyant ! good evening iskender

Timo Nieminen · 13th February 2016, 01:40 AM

So, a library of European and local examples with photos and sounds would be just the thing!

(2-3 narrow fullers is common enough on European cavalry blades of the 17th and 18th centuries; also 1 narrow fuller.)

ariel · 13th February 2016, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iskender

IF the blade would be made in india ,would you still call it a firangi?

Totally analogous local examples were called either Sukhela or Dhup.

And Timo is correct: European blades often sported 2-3 narrow fullers, and this was faithfully copied by the locals in India and N. Africa.

estcrh · 14th February 2016, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iskender

IF the blade would be made in india ,would you still call it a firangi?

I would still call it a firangi if it was made in the same style or maybe a "firangi style sword with Indian blade".

Now would you call a tulwar hilted sword with a similar European / European looking blade a firangi, if not what would it be called?

ariel · 15th February 2016, 11:49 AM

If the blade is truly European, then by definition it would be a Firangi ( foreigner, European). If a locally-made copy, then it would be a Dhup or Sukhela. At least how I imagine the locals would call it:-)

And I would not dwell on the handle: they were switched left and right.

I have a "tulwar" with a European blade that used to sport an Indian "basket hilt" long ago: under the langets it still has an outline of the riveting plates and the rivet hole.

Remember old posts by Fernando? The one in which he reported Daehnhardt mentioning his conversation with an Indian Rajah about separate storage of handles and blades in local arsenals and their assemblage in case of need? Almost all examples in the Fiegel's book sport blades and handles dated separately.

Timo Nieminen · 15th February 2016, 11:10 PM

Speaking of rivet holes, are those brass plugs near the hilt in the preceding sword filling rivet holes from an older hilt?

ariel · 16th February 2016, 12:51 AM

Quite likely.

estcrh · 17th February 2016, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

If the blade is truly European, then by definition it would be a Firangi ( foreigner, European). If a locally-made copy, then it would be a Dhup or Sukhela. At least how I imagine the locals would call it:-)

And I would not dwell on the handle: they were switched left and right.

And if you do not know whether a swords European looking blade is actually European or a locally made copy then the sword is by default a "firangi"?

ariel · 17th February 2016, 03:31 AM

Whose fault is by default? :-)

10th February 2016, 12:59 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is mine. A single wide and gently rounded fuller, 2 markings, a "star" and Genoese "jaws" I would guess we may have a reasonably high degree of certainty that the blade is European. I always thought that blades with 2 or 3 narrow, deep and rectangular fullers are "local" more likely than not: I have seen a lot of them on North-African and Indian blades. Am I wrong? Attached Images

11th February 2016, 12:05 AM	#3
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	firangi for comment IF the blade would be made in india ,would you still call it a firangi? ( i am not a hero loading up pictures ,i still need the help of my kids) as soon as possible i will upload my swords simmilar to the copies allready shown! as till then i can say that european exportblades with 2-3 fullers and realy are genuine european blades (not lookalike copies) have a other tone when you tick them with your fingernails. the wootz -blades sound dull, the others like a bell! (more ore less ,i am not a musician) you must try it out yourself and look if it gives some sense! the blade of ariel could be european from the form ,difficult to say when you are not a clairvoyant ! good evening iskender

13th February 2016, 01:40 AM	#4
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	So, a library of European and local examples with photos and sounds would be just the thing! (2-3 narrow fullers is common enough on European cavalry blades of the 17th and 18th centuries; also 1 narrow fuller.)

15th February 2016, 11:49 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If the blade is truly European, then by definition it would be a Firangi ( foreigner, European). If a locally-made copy, then it would be a Dhup or Sukhela. At least how I imagine the locals would call it:-) And I would not dwell on the handle: they were switched left and right. I have a "tulwar" with a European blade that used to sport an Indian "basket hilt" long ago: under the langets it still has an outline of the riveting plates and the rivet hole. Remember old posts by Fernando? The one in which he reported Daehnhardt mentioning his conversation with an Indian Rajah about separate storage of handles and blades in local arsenals and their assemblage in case of need? Almost all examples in the Fiegel's book sport blades and handles dated separately.

15th February 2016, 11:10 PM	#8
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Speaking of rivet holes, are those brass plugs near the hilt in the preceding sword filling rivet holes from an older hilt?

16th February 2016, 12:51 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Quite likely.

17th February 2016, 03:31 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Whose fault is by default? :-)