Ornate Caucasian Shashka ? with Motto - Any Info ?

Rivkin · 19th January 2006, 11:03 PM

While there is certainly no way to say a final word in appraisals, especially when dealing with such a poorly researched subject as caucasian weapons, I would argue against the hilt being of recent manufacture.

The niello work is "circassian classic" - lot's of open space, motiffs of earlier type rather than later dagestani version, with zigzag fillings. If we accept the circassian provenance, it is highly unlikely that it is post-1864 (since at this moment circassians almost disappear as a race, not speaking of their complete eclipse as weapon-makers). Niello seems also to be of a quite good quality, I like the way it stands out. I am no expert, but I would suggest 1840's being more or less a good guess.

The blade is probably a trade-blade, very likely initially made in Solingen or so, not necessary specifically for Caucasus. I like this shashka.

Concerning the "sound-testing" of weapons - it's a classic. If you drop a sword with it flat side towards the flow it is any good it is supposed to emit long, very high pitch sound - at least according to the "tradition".

My pseudo-scientific take would be:
a. You want your sword be very flexible, with high elasticily which corresponds to a relatively weak "viscous-style" damping of oscillations, therefore the sword will emit sounds for a long time.
b. You don't want to have extensive coupling to next to uniform and uniform modes, for it is what you expect to have unless you use some super-nonuniform excitation. Obviously is these modes are excited during strike, their will suck the energy and "jerk around" your hand. Therefore you don't want to hear low-pitch sounds.
Now I have a problem, because I would expect that the good thing would be if the sound would be high-pitch and very weak (we simply do not couple to the modes).

P.S. May be they just liked the beatiful sound, no science in mind

.

Radu Transylvanicus · 20th January 2006, 12:13 AM

We all agree at least that it is a darn beautiful and battle ready sword, a composite with European and Caucasian parts...

thats good!
And I have to get the Asvatsaturjian book(s) seems like I missed a lot by not having it on the shelf. How much and where, any other languages than Russian or at least a bilingual edition of some sort. Seems like Asvatsaturjian is no Tirri in any way.

ariel · 20th January 2006, 12:14 AM

We are in complete agreement with Rivkin. Only his scientific explanation is wa-a-a-ay above my head

I have a Georgian shashka with a perfectly intact and very strong blade that is unmarked. Drawing it out of the scabbard or flicking it with a finger produces a perfect ringing sound that lasts for about 2-3 seconds. I'll ask my son to check the note.
Uncanny....

Jeff D · 20th January 2006, 12:24 AM

Hi casperkor,

I too am firmly in the "I like it camp". I also agree with idea of a fusion of a European blade with a local Daghestan hilt. I think Rivikin may be a little early with his dates however. I suspect this hilt is early 20th century.

Here is one of my own with a dated hilt of 1322 AH (1902 AD)
Very nice and thanks for showing it to us!
Jeff

casperkor · 20th January 2006, 01:16 AM

This is great everyone.. thank you..

Jeff, your sword is in beautiful condition!

I am adding some pics. To clarify, there is the rest of the motto underneath the 2 wave things. (timeas). I have added the picture of the other side of the blade as well as one of the view of the top of the blade. There is some interesting decor which might be saying something that I obviously am not understanding.

pic1
pic2
pic3

Thanks again!

Radu Transylvanicus · 20th January 2006, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi casperkor,
I think Rivikin may be a little early with his dates however. I suspect this hilt is early 20th century. Here is one of my own with a dated hilt of 1322 AH (1902 AD)
Jeff

I must agree with Rivkin, IMHO, this sword is well earliear than 20th century in both blade and grip.
But your shashka is dated right and it also looks right for its time.
CASPERKOR can we see the damages on the cutting edge, mainly the upper 1/3 of blade?

Jeff D · 20th January 2006, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

I must agree with Rivkin in this, IMHO, this sword is well earliear than 20th century in both blade and grip.
But your shashka is dated right and it also looks right for its time.

Hi Radu,

I have no problems with the dating of the blade to late 18th c. early 19th. The hilt maybe earlier but the work looks a little later to me. I posted my hilt to illustrate that the work did continue into the 20th c.
I have been waiting for the English version of Astvatsaturjan since I have no possibility of reading the Russian text (my father was fluent but never taught me a word), I guess it is time to give up that hope

. I would appreciate it if someone can show similar work with the early dates.

Thanks
Jeff

Rivkin · 20th January 2006, 03:01 AM

Jeff:

Your shashka is Dagestan (may be Lak ??), imho it is very different from what we have over here. Because of this I have a small problem understanding what "similar" - similar in terms of that it is shashka with niello and rumi-derivative ornament ? Or similar to yours, or similar to the one in question ?

Jeff D · 20th January 2006, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Jeff:

Your shashka is Dagestan (may be Lak ??), imho it is very different from what we have over here. Because of this I have a small problem understanding what "similar" - similar in terms of that it is shashka with niello and rumi-derivative ornament ? Or similar to yours, or similar to the one in question ?

Hi Rivkin,

Sorry about the confusion it is my fault. I misunderstood the Circassian atribution in your earlier post. My confusion comes from the fact that I was sure I have seen similar "open patterns" coming from Dagestan in the late 19th early 20th century. Of course now that I am trying to find them I am unable. I will keep looking to see if they were misidentified, or if I misread it. I would love to see more of this Circassian work if you have pictures.

Thanks and sorry again.
Jeff

20th January 2006, 12:24 AM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi casperkor, I too am firmly in the "I like it camp". I also agree with idea of a fusion of a European blade with a local Daghestan hilt. I think Rivikin may be a little early with his dates however. I suspect this hilt is early 20th century. Here is one of my own with a dated hilt of 1322 AH (1902 AD) Very nice and thanks for showing it to us! Jeff Attached Images

19th January 2006, 11:03 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	While there is certainly no way to say a final word in appraisals, especially when dealing with such a poorly researched subject as caucasian weapons, I would argue against the hilt being of recent manufacture. The niello work is "circassian classic" - lot's of open space, motiffs of earlier type rather than later dagestani version, with zigzag fillings. If we accept the circassian provenance, it is highly unlikely that it is post-1864 (since at this moment circassians almost disappear as a race, not speaking of their complete eclipse as weapon-makers). Niello seems also to be of a quite good quality, I like the way it stands out. I am no expert, but I would suggest 1840's being more or less a good guess. The blade is probably a trade-blade, very likely initially made in Solingen or so, not necessary specifically for Caucasus. I like this shashka. Concerning the "sound-testing" of weapons - it's a classic. If you drop a sword with it flat side towards the flow it is any good it is supposed to emit long, very high pitch sound - at least according to the "tradition". My pseudo-scientific take would be: a. You want your sword be very flexible, with high elasticily which corresponds to a relatively weak "viscous-style" damping of oscillations, therefore the sword will emit sounds for a long time. b. You don't want to have extensive coupling to next to uniform and uniform modes, for it is what you expect to have unless you use some super-nonuniform excitation. Obviously is these modes are excited during strike, their will suck the energy and "jerk around" your hand. Therefore you don't want to hear low-pitch sounds. Now I have a problem, because I would expect that the good thing would be if the sound would be high-pitch and very weak (we simply do not couple to the modes). P.S. May be they just liked the beatiful sound, no science in mind .

20th January 2006, 12:13 AM	#2
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	We all agree at least that it is a darn beautiful and battle ready sword, a composite with European and Caucasian parts... thats good! And I have to get the Asvatsaturjian book(s) seems like I missed a lot by not having it on the shelf. How much and where, any other languages than Russian or at least a bilingual edition of some sort. Seems like Asvatsaturjian is no Tirri in any way.

20th January 2006, 12:14 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	We are in complete agreement with Rivkin. Only his scientific explanation is wa-a-a-ay above my head I have a Georgian shashka with a perfectly intact and very strong blade that is unmarked. Drawing it out of the scabbard or flicking it with a finger produces a perfect ringing sound that lasts for about 2-3 seconds. I'll ask my son to check the note. Uncanny....

20th January 2006, 01:16 AM	#5
casperkor Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 5	This is great everyone.. thank you.. Jeff, your sword is in beautiful condition! I am adding some pics. To clarify, there is the rest of the motto underneath the 2 wave things. (timeas). I have added the picture of the other side of the blade as well as one of the view of the top of the blade. There is some interesting decor which might be saying something that I obviously am not understanding. pic1 pic2 pic3 Thanks again!

20th January 2006, 03:01 AM	#8
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Jeff: Your shashka is Dagestan (may be Lak ??), imho it is very different from what we have over here. Because of this I have a small problem understanding what "similar" - similar in terms of that it is shashka with niello and rumi-derivative ornament ? Or similar to yours, or similar to the one in question ?