A basket hilted swords for comments

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Wait a minute, guys .
By eight kingsheads, they mean four on each side; as Andrea on one side and Ferara on the other.

... Or am i missing something here ?

Actually no, but here is another good lesson in accepting data from a 'news item' verbatim as accurate. In the reference you posted from 1969, the text reads the blade is marked with " THE eight kings head mark" and does not specify that the number was inclusive from 'both' sides of the blade, but suggests seen as one group. The article does not specify that ANDREA and FERARA were on opposing sides of the blade either.
I guess its kinda like using art to research weaponry , in a thoroughly riveting concurrent discussion on another thread. Always need to verify!!

Cathey, thank you so much for the outstanding reference to this European example! as well as cross referencing to your excellent thread on basket hilts which thankfully maintains fantastic momentum. It is great to have this expanded view of basket hilted forms elsewhere in Europe.

[fernando]

Excelent, Cathey ...
Thank you ever so much for the great info and convincing pictures.
The fact that you wish this sword was in your collection is for me the best certificate of quality.
So French it will be.
Concerning the blade with its 'marketing' inscriptions, but with a very nice and consistent look, still we could guess it is a Solingen work, don't you think ?
I have read in article that Solingen supplied most of the blades to France until 1729, when the manufactory at Klingethal in Alsace was established by workmen of Solingen ...

Thanks again

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...In the reference you posted from 1969, the text reads the blade is marked with " THE eight kings head mark" and does not specify that the number was inclusive from 'both' sides of the blade, but suggests seen as one group. The article does not specify that ANDREA and FERARA were on opposing sides of the blade either...

Just a question of approach, Jim. As i am not a 'hard core' connoisseur, it is for me easier to consider that, the persons or sources that described the sword for the article, were not familiar with the antique weaponry universe, so they decided to count all Kings heads in a whole bunch. Also the same occurred with the Andrea Ferara quotation, while most certainly each one of the two names appeared in the different sides of the, as so often happens.


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[Jim McDougall]

Its always good to see we are in complete accord Fernando, as what I was saying is that 'news reporters' did not exactly describe things in terms which us 'hard core' connoisseurs could relate to. I thought that was what you were describing.

I had forgotten all about Cathey's earlier posts concerning French versions of basket hilts there, and that would perfectly explain the 'European' context supposed by Mr. Long in his description. It is quite reasonable that this 'type' hilt would be present with the numbers of expatriate Jacobites whose communities were ever mounting in France.

I wanted to add to your excellent discovery of the news item with another entry I found in :
"Notes on Four Basket Hilted Swords Belonging to the Society" by Parker Brewis , read April 26, 1899.
"Archaeologia Aeliana", The Society of Antiquaries of Newcastle Upon Tyne" Vol. XXI.
This regarding a basket hilt 'Andrea Ferara' , which notes, "....there are also many bearing a crowne kings head at EVERY SECOND LETTER - this was the mark of Johannes Wundes of Solingen 1560-1610".

As it seems that this progenitor of the Wundes 'dynasty' had his mark punched on a good number of sword blades, but 'usually' in threes, as one with the famed stylized running wolf on a Munich sword c. 1600. On this was his name also broadly inscribed IOHANES WUNDES -SOLIDEO GLORIA.
The triple marks appeared as such on each side of the blade, but with different accompanying words.

Interestingly I found another blade with FOUR kings heads in this linear stacked configuration, the blade similar with the profiled lines along blade edges. In this case, there was no Andrea Ferara, but I need to confirm whether it was on a Scottish sword.

Whatever the case, it does seem that the four kings heads did occur on clearly Solingen blades as described , but there were examples which omitted the Andrea Ferara . It is generally held that the Andrea Ferara appellation was indeed a Scottish market attraction, and on one sword was X ANDREWA FARRERA X which alludes to the notion that 'Andrew' represented St. Andrew (as with these St. Andrews crosses at each end) and the Ferrara (= Lat. ferrum= iron). This is of course highly debatable and outside the scope here, but the point being that the Andrew Ferara within the letters appeared in a number of 'Scottish' cases as you have shown.

As very much agreed by us all, this is an outstanding example and in my opinion quite plausibly to a Jacobite in French regions, as per Cathey's interesting notes. As you have well noted, Solingen was indeed supplier to French makers in many cases, in fact an Abraham Wundes was one of the first makers in Klingenthal c. 1730.

Could this possibly be a Wundes descendant in early Klingenthal using a variation of his hereditary markings, and to Scottish Jacobites in France, further using hilt style for British dragoon swords as produced in the garrison centers?

[fernando]

Thank you for input, Jim.
If i follow it correctly ...
Concerning the system of striking the crowned Kings head at every second letter, if we apply a certain (correct?) reading criteria, such is the habit prevailing in the marking my sword ... whoever wished to profit on Wundes charisma.
What i didn't know and have just learnt is that, such mark is carved over the entrance in the house in Johannes Strasse. Having been registered in 1584, this mark was in Peter Wundes possession by 1719, his grandson having sold it in 1774 to Peter Wiersberg.
Concerning blades, i follow your reasoning on the Solingen-Klingenthal route.
Whereas concerning hilts and the Jacobite lead, in my ignorance i am facing a vice versa situation. I have just read, something not knew to you is that, according to Harold L. Peterson (for one?), the basket hilt originated on the Continent, whence it was adopted in England during the Civil War for use by Cavalry, and indeed continued as the Cavalry man’s sword until well into the XVIII century.
Whether the Scots too kit up through contact with Cromwellian horse, or acquired it straight from the Continent, seems uncertain.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Fernando, I think we are on the same course here, and I do recall the Peterson entries, which always seemed an unusual place to find data on Scottish swords as for me he was always about 'American' swords. What I often forget of course is the huge numbers of Scots who came to this country (then England) and of course brought with them their trusty basket hilts. In the pirate lore on Blackbeard, it was long held that british Lt. Maynard held the victory over the legendary pirate, however in recent years it was revealed that it was a Highlander , with his trusty basket hilt who actually dealt the fatal blows to him.

Just as I often had overlooked the diffusion of these distinct basket hilts away from Scotland to these shores, I had never really realized how many of them probably went to France along with the Jacobites, and as such, how many examples were indeed likely produced there in accord with their preferences.

The detail you include on the Wundes group is most telling, and it is most interesting that 1584 is also the year supposed of the death of the fabled Andrea Ferara if I recall correctly from some of these readings. I am not sure how that would play into these findings and material, however it seems curiously coincidental. I am not sure there has ever been a consensus on whether or not this person actually existed (along with his brother) or if this is more legend.

What is certain is that this name/term was legion to the Scots in the character of the blades of their beloved basket hilts.
In the instance of these interspersed konigskopf (crowned king heads) with the letters of ANDREA FERARA, it does seem anomalous relative to the usual application of the FERARA name on the blades, and it is most tempting to consider the possibility of Klingenthal origin given the Wundes connection noted c. 1730. Naturally Scottish blades had long been established coming from Solingen already, and this rather innovative melding of the FERARA name so favored, with the well known mark of Wundes certainly would have been attractive to these 'hard core' Scottish Jacobites on the Continent.

It is most exciting to see this rather esoteric part of the history of Scottish basket hilts and its hopefully supportable development. Looks like you may have opened a new chapter with these kings head and Ferara the leading clue!

[fernando]

Yes Jim, indeed the article i first found was written by Peterson, about the American sword; but what i was browsing on was the king's head, which he eventualy brings about in his work, when fixing the origin of Amercian swords in the colonial times.
But what i have read on a second article, and not from Peterson as i mistakenly quoted, is one of Michael Barthorp, in his work the 'Jacobite Rebellions', in which he clearly states that, the basket hilt went from the Continent to Britain (and not the other way round), to replace the two handed claymore (claidheamh mor), the blade of many being dut down for such purpose. This 'inverted route' is something that either i missed or you didn't yet specificaly comment on ... and i would like to hear about.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fernando,
Indeed the Peterson book brought up the kings head marks and basket hilts in America, as was of course well established in his book on arms in Colonial America. That reference along with George Nuemann's book on swords of the American Revolution carried the scope of European arms in this country quite well.
The article you mention by Barthorp, is that the Osprey reference?

In any case, in the development of the Scottish basket hilt itself, as I have understood, especially through the extensive work by the late Claude Blair, the developed basket hilt did evolve from the Continent. It does seem that influence came to British shores quite early in English swords (i.e. examples found on the wreck of the Mary Rose), but that primary influence on the Scottish hilts came from dusagge (cf. Sinclair sabres) of mostly northern Europe. These heavy basket hilt sabres were impressive to the Scots who served in these regions as mercenaries, and began evolving into the well known Scottish forms around 16th century. There is a good deal of confusion on just how much cross diffusion between the developing Scottish forms and English examples, but the characters began taking on certain distinctions independently.

With these basket hilt forms which seem to have expatriated to France as described earlier, it was not a developmental move, but more a geopolitical transference. It does seem that more fully developed guards in hilts were present in other countries some time after the Scottish and English hilts evolved in Britain, but they seem likely independent of these and quite likely from the same root with the closed guard dusagges.

That is what I have understood and recall from researches on these years ago, and I hope it makes sense. These are incredibly fascinating swords, and another of my addictions (along with cup hilts ! )

All the best
Jim