A basket hilted swords for comments

ulfberth · 4th February 2016, 08:17 PM

Thank you Jim for the very complete research and arguments.
It seems that the name Andrea Ferrara was needed on every broadsword or backsword blade from the late 16th C to the late 18th C especially if the blades were intended Scottish or English market.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

fernando · 4th February 2016, 08:54 PM

Yes, great input Jim.
Let me digest all said and register it.

Jim McDougall · 5th February 2016, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Yes, great input Jim.
Let me digest all said and register it.

Bon appe'tit Fernando!

I am with Ulfberth , speechless on this tidbit on this sword.
Wow, '69, the summer of love ,man!

So we have EIGHT kingsheads, along with Andrea Ferara. Maybe these became a kind of talismanic or quality symbol, and the more kingsheads the more mojo.
I am now compelled to find more of the kings head phenomenon data, and to discover how many variations and configurations can be catalogued

fernando · 5th February 2016, 06:15 PM

Wait a minute, guys

.
By eight kingsheads, they mean four on each side; as Andrea on one side and Ferara on the other.

... Or am i missing something here ?

Cathey · 6th February 2016, 01:42 AM

HI Fernando

Great Basket, you must be very excited to acquire it. Unfortunately with basket hilts the blade don't help us much as they where rarely of local manufacture and everyone wanted some version of Farara on them.

This brings us back to the hilt, which at first I thought British dragoon variation, however having now become aware of the popularity of Basket hilts in France I am leaning toward s this one being French or continental. Haven't found one with these elegant rounded bars in my data base yet so I will dig into my library and see if something pops up.

The wonderful thing about basket hilts is the variations are endless and keep up guessing. As I said great sword, wish it was in my collection.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Cathey · 6th February 2016, 04:06 AM

Hi Fernando,

found this one in my data base, very similar with a plain blade. Michael long had it listed as a European Cavalry sword.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2016, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Wait a minute, guys

.
By eight kingsheads, they mean four on each side; as Andrea on one side and Ferara on the other.

... Or am i missing something here ?

Actually no, but here is another good lesson in accepting data from a 'news item' verbatim as accurate. In the reference you posted from 1969, the text reads the blade is marked with " THE eight kings head mark" and does not specify that the number was inclusive from 'both' sides of the blade, but suggests seen as one group. The article does not specify that ANDREA and FERARA were on opposing sides of the blade either.
I guess its kinda like using art to research weaponry , in a thoroughly riveting concurrent discussion on another thread. Always need to verify!!

Cathey, thank you so much for the outstanding reference to this European example! as well as cross referencing to your excellent thread on basket hilts which thankfully maintains fantastic momentum. It is great to have this expanded view of basket hilted forms elsewhere in Europe.

fernando · 6th February 2016, 12:25 PM

Excelent, Cathey ...
Thank you ever so much for the great info and convincing pictures.
The fact that you wish this sword was in your collection is for me the best certificate of quality.
So French it will be.
Concerning the blade with its 'marketing' inscriptions, but with a very nice and consistent look, still we could guess it is a Solingen work, don't you think ?
I have read in article that Solingen supplied most of the blades to France until 1729, when the manufactory at Klingethal in Alsace was established by workmen of Solingen ...

Thanks again

fernando · 6th February 2016, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...In the reference you posted from 1969, the text reads the blade is marked with " THE eight kings head mark" and does not specify that the number was inclusive from 'both' sides of the blade, but suggests seen as one group. The article does not specify that ANDREA and FERARA were on opposing sides of the blade either...

Just a question of approach, Jim. As i am not a 'hard core' connoisseur, it is for me easier to consider that, the persons or sources that described the sword for the article, were not familiar with the antique weaponry universe, so they decided to count all Kings heads in a whole bunch. Also the same occurred with the Andrea Ferara quotation, while most certainly each one of the two names appeared in the different sides of the, as so often happens.

.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2016, 06:17 PM

Its always good to see we are in complete accord Fernando, as what I was saying is that 'news reporters' did not exactly describe things in terms which us 'hard core' connoisseurs could relate to. I thought that was what you were describing.

I had forgotten all about Cathey's earlier posts concerning French versions of basket hilts there, and that would perfectly explain the 'European' context supposed by Mr. Long in his description. It is quite reasonable that this 'type' hilt would be present with the numbers of expatriate Jacobites whose communities were ever mounting in France.

I wanted to add to your excellent discovery of the news item with another entry I found in :
"Notes on Four Basket Hilted Swords Belonging to the Society" by Parker Brewis , read April 26, 1899.
"Archaeologia Aeliana", The Society of Antiquaries of Newcastle Upon Tyne" Vol. XXI.
This regarding a basket hilt 'Andrea Ferara' , which notes, "....there are also many bearing a crowne kings head at EVERY SECOND LETTER - this was the mark of Johannes Wundes of Solingen 1560-1610".

As it seems that this progenitor of the Wundes 'dynasty' had his mark punched on a good number of sword blades, but 'usually' in threes, as one with the famed stylized running wolf on a Munich sword c. 1600. On this was his name also broadly inscribed IOHANES WUNDES -SOLIDEO GLORIA.
The triple marks appeared as such on each side of the blade, but with different accompanying words.

Interestingly I found another blade with FOUR kings heads in this linear stacked configuration, the blade similar with the profiled lines along blade edges. In this case, there was no Andrea Ferara, but I need to confirm whether it was on a Scottish sword.

Whatever the case, it does seem that the four kings heads did occur on clearly Solingen blades as described , but there were examples which omitted the Andrea Ferara . It is generally held that the Andrea Ferara appellation was indeed a Scottish market attraction, and on one sword was X ANDREWA FARRERA X which alludes to the notion that 'Andrew' represented St. Andrew (as with these St. Andrews crosses at each end) and the Ferrara (= Lat. ferrum= iron). This is of course highly debatable and outside the scope here, but the point being that the Andrew Ferara within the letters appeared in a number of 'Scottish' cases as you have shown.

As very much agreed by us all, this is an outstanding example and in my opinion quite plausibly to a Jacobite in French regions, as per Cathey's interesting notes. As you have well noted, Solingen was indeed supplier to French makers in many cases, in fact an Abraham Wundes was one of the first makers in Klingenthal c. 1730.

Could this possibly be a Wundes descendant in early Klingenthal using a variation of his hereditary markings, and to Scottish Jacobites in France, further using hilt style for British dragoon swords as produced in the garrison centers?

6th February 2016, 01:42 AM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Brass basket Hilt for comment HI Fernando Great Basket, you must be very excited to acquire it. Unfortunately with basket hilts the blade don't help us much as they where rarely of local manufacture and everyone wanted some version of Farara on them. This brings us back to the hilt, which at first I thought British dragoon variation, however having now become aware of the popularity of Basket hilts in France I am leaning toward s this one being French or continental. Haven't found one with these elegant rounded bars in my data base yet so I will dig into my library and see if something pops up. The wonderful thing about basket hilts is the variations are endless and keep up guessing. As I said great sword, wish it was in my collection. Cheers Cathey and Rex

6th February 2016, 04:06 AM	#6
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Found one Similar Hi Fernando, found this one in my data base, very similar with a plain blade. Michael long had it listed as a European Cavalry sword. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

4th February 2016, 08:17 PM	#1
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	Thank you Jim for the very complete research and arguments. It seems that the name Andrea Ferrara was needed on every broadsword or backsword blade from the late 16th C to the late 18th C especially if the blades were intended Scottish or English market. Kind regards Ulfberth

4th February 2016, 08:54 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Yes, great input Jim. Let me digest all said and register it.

5th February 2016, 06:15 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Wait a minute, guys . By eight kingsheads, they mean four on each side; as Andrea on one side and Ferara on the other. ... Or am i missing something here ?

6th February 2016, 12:25 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Excelent, Cathey ... Thank you ever so much for the great info and convincing pictures. The fact that you wish this sword was in your collection is for me the best certificate of quality. So French it will be. Concerning the blade with its 'marketing' inscriptions, but with a very nice and consistent look, still we could guess it is a Solingen work, don't you think ? I have read in article that Solingen supplied most of the blades to France until 1729, when the manufactory at Klingethal in Alsace was established by workmen of Solingen ... Thanks again

6th February 2016, 06:17 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Its always good to see we are in complete accord Fernando, as what I was saying is that 'news reporters' did not exactly describe things in terms which us 'hard core' connoisseurs could relate to. I thought that was what you were describing. I had forgotten all about Cathey's earlier posts concerning French versions of basket hilts there, and that would perfectly explain the 'European' context supposed by Mr. Long in his description. It is quite reasonable that this 'type' hilt would be present with the numbers of expatriate Jacobites whose communities were ever mounting in France. I wanted to add to your excellent discovery of the news item with another entry I found in : "Notes on Four Basket Hilted Swords Belonging to the Society" by Parker Brewis , read April 26, 1899. "Archaeologia Aeliana", The Society of Antiquaries of Newcastle Upon Tyne" Vol. XXI. This regarding a basket hilt 'Andrea Ferara' , which notes, "....there are also many bearing a crowne kings head at EVERY SECOND LETTER - this was the mark of Johannes Wundes of Solingen 1560-1610". As it seems that this progenitor of the Wundes 'dynasty' had his mark punched on a good number of sword blades, but 'usually' in threes, as one with the famed stylized running wolf on a Munich sword c. 1600. On this was his name also broadly inscribed IOHANES WUNDES -SOLIDEO GLORIA. The triple marks appeared as such on each side of the blade, but with different accompanying words. Interestingly I found another blade with FOUR kings heads in this linear stacked configuration, the blade similar with the profiled lines along blade edges. In this case, there was no Andrea Ferara, but I need to confirm whether it was on a Scottish sword. Whatever the case, it does seem that the four kings heads did occur on clearly Solingen blades as described , but there were examples which omitted the Andrea Ferara . It is generally held that the Andrea Ferara appellation was indeed a Scottish market attraction, and on one sword was X ANDREWA FARRERA X which alludes to the notion that 'Andrew' represented St. Andrew (as with these St. Andrews crosses at each end) and the Ferrara (= Lat. ferrum= iron). This is of course highly debatable and outside the scope here, but the point being that the Andrew Ferara within the letters appeared in a number of 'Scottish' cases as you have shown. As very much agreed by us all, this is an outstanding example and in my opinion quite plausibly to a Jacobite in French regions, as per Cathey's interesting notes. As you have well noted, Solingen was indeed supplier to French makers in many cases, in fact an Abraham Wundes was one of the first makers in Klingenthal c. 1730. Could this possibly be a Wundes descendant in early Klingenthal using a variation of his hereditary markings, and to Scottish Jacobites in France, further using hilt style for British dragoon swords as produced in the garrison centers?