Vasily Vereshchagin "Indian poem"

[ariel]

Perhaps. But he could witness events of 1872 no better than those of 1858: he wasn't there for either:-)

Nothing wrong with it artistically : Rembrandt never witnessed the return of the Prodigal Son, Moses did not have horns and Sistine Chapel is not a documentary account of the Creation of Adam and the Last Judgement.

Once and for all: works of art are not historical facts. In the best possible case they provide us with a glimpse of contemporaneous view of material objects, in the worst one they are malicious distortions of truth. The greatest majority of them are somewhere in between. But no court on Earth would accept them as evidence.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Perhaps. But he could witness events of 1872 no better than those of 1858: he wasn't there for either:-)

Simple question. Do you think from 1872 until 1875 (ie three years) that has changed dramatically: the shape of the British soldiers, the British guns or Sikhs-namdhari?
We all understand that the picture - this is not the photo report from the event. But valuable that Vereshchagin adhered even small details in his paintings.

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

Perhaps. But he could witness events of 1872 no better than those of 1858: he wasn't there for either:-)

Nothing wrong with it artistically : Rembrandt never witnessed the return of the Prodigal Son, Moses did not have horns and Sistine Chapel is not a documentary account of the Creation of Adam and the Last Judgement.

Once and for all: works of art are not historical facts. In the best possible case they provide us with a glimpse of contemporaneous view of material objects, in the worst one they are malicious distortions of truth. The greatest majority of them are somewhere in between. But no court on Earth would accept them as evidence.

Ariel, i feel like you are being contrary just for the sake of it here. You are comparing works of classical artists such as Rembrandt that depict biblical themes from two millenniums past to these HISTORICAL paintings that are based, if not on the personal account and sketches of the artist, then upon direct accounts received by him within a few years of their occurrence. Certainly you can concede that the accuracy of Vereshchagin's work regarding the weapons, dress and even the details of the events depicted in his paintings carries more weight and historical correctness than, say, Rembrandt's depiction of the blinding of Samson with a keris blade.
Yes, painting is not documentary photography, we all know that. Many of these paintings might therefore have added drama of light and perhaps an over saturation of color. But what does that mean regarding our use of them in our study of the weapons and armor used in the conflicts that are depicted in Vereshchagin's paintings? What inaccuracies do you find there? If you can't be specific i think you are just nitpicking for no other purpose but to argue.

[Jim McDougall]

As I noted, this discussion, which has been primarily the topic of the Russian artist Vereshchagin's work, has been most interesting.
Actually I agree heartily with Mahratt as well as David, that essentially works of art (and typically that often includes photographs) must be gauged carefully in their veracity as historical evidence.

It is well known that art itself, is intended to elicit temporal and emotional reaction from the viewer, which is why artists often employed varying degree of license in their portrayals of historical events and situations.
In the many references I have read through on the subject of 'historical detection', the best by far is "After the Fact: The Art of Historical Detection". James Davidson and Mark Lytle, N.Y. 1982, and is remarkable.

In reviewing this book as I write this, I wanted to select a notable comment which addresses our subject of the use of art in studying history, but it is overwhelming as each page is full of compelling perspective on this.

While the methods of 'detection' apply outside art itself to narratives, records, and all manner of historic detail, the references to artists themselves are most telling.

I once did extensive research involving the identification of a Spanish 'cuera', the leather armor of the Spanish colonial soldiers in the frontiers of New Spain. In trying to locate an example of one of these, only two were found....however an unusual example which looked more like an early Roman armor was found in Arizona.
This was remarkable in that not only did two other cuera still exist, this one was of entirely different form than previously known.

The true identification of this curious anomaly in Spanish leather was found in paintings on hide, which incredibly had been discovered in Switzerland though painted in New Mexico in the 1720s. These had been sent there by a Jesuit priest to his family in about 1758. Through many efforts by local historians in New Mexico, these were finally returned there in the 1980s.

In this painting, which was painted by local Pueblos of a tragic battle in Nebraska involving the massacre of a Spanish contingent from Santa Fe, many of the allied Indian warriors accompanying the Spaniards were wearing this type leather armor. It was the only known depiction of such a form, and had been unknown and in Europe since 1758. Therefore, the only references on Spanish colonial weapons and armor did not include this type.
Further, this piece acquired in the late 19th century was only ever shown in a remote private museum in Arizona, whose owner died and the holdings were kept in storage until finally dispersed in an estate sale a number of years ago.
It was captioned, 'old conquistador leather armor' only and in deplorable condition, with little other note.

We used these paintings (known as the Segesser hides), along with considerable research into contemporary narratives and accounts, as well as examining the known corpus of material on Spanish colonial material culture to collect facts. We also confirmed the existence of the only other two cuera (one in the Smithsonian dated c.1820 and one in the Armeria Real dated c1770, both in storage).....and considered their forms as we examined the details of our example.

We were finally able to determine that our cuera was from the 1690s period and produced by Indian artisans with Spanish advisors using the cuir boulli method (contrary to rawhide in the other examples) and apparently used by these Pueblo Indians loyal to the Spaniards in those times and it would appear primarily in the Santa Fe regions.

In this way, with considerable corroboration, we were able to indeed use a work of art, contemporary to the events depicted, by Indian painters being directed by survivors and fashions and forms in use contemporarily there, to identify this rare item of leather armor, the only one of its kind.

This anecdotal case (I apologize for the length) is to emphasize that of course artwork is valuable in historical study, but any reasonable historian will advance with caution and engage in considerable supportive study in applying its place in any study.

Aside from those caveats, I thing it is quite possible to enjoy art for what it is, and greatly respect each artist for their talents and skills. In so many cases, the nuances and symbolism within these works can become history themselves!!! (look at "The DaVinci Code" !!).

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

We used these paintings (known as the Segesser hides), along with considerable research into contemporary narratives and accounts, as well as examining the known corpus of material on Spanish colonial material culture to collect facts.

Jim, thanks for this info, I was aware of the scale armor mentioned but not these paintings, here are two links, one with more info and one with zoomable images of the Segesser hides.

http://media.museumofnewmexico.org/e...ail&eventID=37
http://www.nmhistorymuseum.org/hides/

[mahratt]

Several paintings by Vereshchagin devoted to the Russian-Turkish war 1877-1878.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Jim, thanks for this info, I was aware of the scale armor mentioned but not these paintings, here are two links, one with more info and one with zoomable images of the Segesser hides.

http://media.museumofnewmexico.org/e...ail&eventID=37
http://www.nmhistorymuseum.org/hides/

You bet Estcrh! and of course this detail is quite familiar. After viewing and consulting on the cuera in Arizona I travelled to Santa Fe where I viewed these fantastic paintings. I was with one of the men who was instrumental in bringing these hides back to Santa Fe, and who gave me key understanding of the detail in these paintings. I was also in touch with Peter Bleed, Professor of Anthropology in Nebraska who had been at the sites of this battle there. The scale mantle was a different item found near El Paso if I recall, but was part of the research scope and I believe handled by Donald Larocca of the Met in New York.
It was a fantastic project!

[mahratt]

Afghan

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely amazing art!! and beautiful pieces, especially that Bukharen sabre (always recognized by the 5 rivet pattern in the grip among other features).
Thank you again for sharing all of these Mahratt. I wish I had walls so I could have copies of many of these up. The adventure sensation they convey must have been much like what those intrepid travelers must have felt as they trekked through these Central Asian regions.

[ariel]

David,
Over here we are dealing with historical ethnographic arms. In my opinion it it impossible to study Oriental arms without delving into history, religion, metaphysics, military clashes, etc, etc of that ancient, multicultural and turbulent area. This is the backbone of any serious study of Eastern weapons , with Elgood exemplifying this approach to the highest degree. Not for nothing his ( IMHO) masterpiece is titled "Hindu arms and ritual".

As a matter of fact this is exactly what you yourself mention repeatedly when Indonesian kris is discussed.

I was not trying to denigrate Vereshchagin's at all: in my opinion , he was just another good Orientalist painter.His uniqueness was in the military direction of his artistic efforts ( although Ingres odalisques may be preferred by others :-)))

I was not looking for any factual inconsistencies in his works, but there must be some. Straight from the top of my head, look at the set of pics just above my response, where the supposed Afghani man carries a typical Bukharan shashka the handle of which has only 3 rivets placed in a line. The hallmark of Bukharan Shashkas is 5 rivets, placed in a 2-1-2 arrangement ( see pic in the same post).


So, what kind of profound conclusions about Central Asian weapons should we reach from that painting ? Perhaps that Vereshchagin's sketch must have missed the detail and he might not have had a real Bukharan shashka in his studio.
Also, the above-quoted Indian article about Vereshchagin mentioned wrong British uniforms.

I am sure that careful review of his paintings by real " Where is Elmo?" aficionados might disclose more factual errors. So what? He was just an artist, for crying out loud ! Artists are not, and should not, be held to strict scientific standards. But by the same token, their images cannot be used as evidences without proper verification.

In contrast, Elgood shows temple carving of warriors with D-guarded swords: 11-12th century! This might overthrow the entire idea of European impact on Hindu weapons! However, Elgood, being a scientist, downplayed the significance of art and suggested waiting for an actual example.


And this is the difference between art and science.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Perhaps. But he could witness events of 1872 no better than those of 1858: he wasn't there for either:-)

I believe that Vereshchagin responded to this by stating that British tactics (tying captives to cannon and executing them in this vicious manner) would have happened whether he actually saw it or not. In other words he was just using this particular painting as an way to bring attention to what he saw as the brutality of British justice in India, he did the same with his painting depicting the execution of members of the Nihilist movement in St Petersburg, political commentary is not always about realism, it is about making people think.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I believe that Vereshchagin responded to this by stating that British tactics (tying captives to cannon and executing them in this vicious manner) would have happened whether he actually saw it or not. In other words he was just using this particular painting as an way to bring attention to what he saw as the brutality of British justice in India, he did the same with his painting depicting the execution of members of the Nihilist movement in St Petersburg, political commentary is not always about realism, it is about making people think.

Well said Estcrh!! and a LOT less words than it took me

[ariel]

David and I seem to have difference of opinion: he calls my comments nitpicking , whereas I view them as an attempt to define strict parameters of proof. Epistemology is one of the main logical and philosophical branches.


I cannot agree with Estcrh on the appropriateness of Vereshchaging's counter argument: the fact that something could have happened doesn't mean that it did happen.

Jim's story is very instructive: an old image prompted long and careful examination of facts before its veracity was established. Artistic images by themselves carry an aura of factual uncertainty, especially if they are motivated by political considerations.

And, BTW, I just found out ( thank you, Wikipedia!) that the brutal Brits, blowing up people from the cannons, actually learned this practice from the ........Moghuls:-) Apparently, physical annihilation of the body prevented reincarnation.

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

David and I seem to have difference of opinion: he calls my comments nitpicking , whereas I view them as an attempt to define strict parameters of proof. Epistemology is one of the main logical and philosophical branches.

Well Ariel, i guess will need to establish what, exactly, we are attempting to "prove" here. Let's put this question into context. As far as i can tell Mahratt did not present any point or question to "prove" in this thread, merely it is a presentation of Vereshchagin's paintings for our viewing. After a short note the content of the works shared turned to depictions of weaponry during war time. This is the Ethnographic Arms & Armour Forum. While we do, from time to time discuss weapons in the context of historical events (it's unavoidable really) our main concern of discussion here is are the weapons themselves, not necessarily the accuracy of the hows and whys of the battles they were used in or the politics of war that surround them. This is not a forum about military strategies per se. And after all, we all know that histories are written by the victors and the actual truth about any particular battle or war is often open to debate. We are here to discuss the weapons themselves, not who was right or wrong in using them or whether the Brits thought up the brutal execution by cannon themselves or got the idea from the Moghuls. We can bruise an awful lot of nationalistic egos here if we focus our arguments on who was right or wrong or most brutal or whose nation was disgraced in which battle or which country had notoriously bad generals. Let's discuss the cannon itself...or the sword or dagger or knife, etc., not the politics of its uses.
So i ask again, what inaccuracies do you find do you find in Vereshchagin's depiction of the weapons and armor in these paintings? What do you think needs to be "proved" here or what misinformation about these weapons do you believe Vereshchagin's work put forth? I certainly don't see any of his figures inaccurately using a keris or some other culturally incorrect weapon in these paintings, do you?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

Well Ariel, i guess will need to establish what, exactly, we are attempting to "prove" here. Let's put this question into context. As far as i can tell Mahratt did not present any point or question to "prove" in this thread, merely it is a presentation of Vereshchagin's paintings for our viewing. After a short note the content of the works shared turned to depictions of weaponry during war time. This is the Ethnographic Arms & Armour Forum. While we do, from time to time discuss weapons in the context of historical events (it's unavoidable really) our main concern of discussion here is are the weapons themselves, not necessarily the accuracy of the hows and whys of the battles they were used in or the politics of war that surround them. This is not a forum about military strategies per se. And after all, we all know that histories are written by the victors and the actual truth about any particular battle or war is often open to debate. We are here to discuss the weapons themselves, not who was right or wrong in using them or whether the Brits thought up the brutal execution by cannon themselves or got the idea from the Moghuls. We can bruise an awful lot of nationalistic egos here if we focus our arguments on who was right or wrong or most brutal or whose nation was disgraced in which battle or which country had notoriously bad generals. Let's discuss the cannon itself...or the sword or dagger or knife, etc., not the politics of its uses.
So i ask again, what inaccuracies do you find do you find in Vereshchagin's depiction of the weapons and armor in these paintings? What do you think needs to be "proved" here or what misinformation about these weapons do you believe Vereshchagin's work put forth? I certainly don't see any of his figures inaccurately using a keris or some other culturally incorrect weapon in these paintings, do you?

Well said David!!! The art needs to be either appreciated for its aesthetic depictions as intended or analyzed as to the components included in its content, but that is left to the person who is observing it. The opinions expressed should be just that, and held as such.

[mahratt]

Hints on political considerations seem strange, given that Vereshchagin showed the same and cruelty of the Russian justice system:

Originally Posted by estcrh

I believe that Vereshchagin responded to this by stating that British tactics (tying captives to cannon and executing them in this vicious manner) would have happened whether he actually saw it or not. In other words he was just using this particular painting as an way to bring attention to what he saw as the brutality of British justice in India, he did the same with his painting depicting the execution of members of the Nihilist movement in St Petersburg, political commentary is not always about realism, it is about making people think.

Wikipedia seems to me, is not the most serious source. Maybe you can find a reliable source? It is interesting to know the facts proving that Blowing from guns (Devil wind) the British took over from Moghuls .

[Jim McDougall]

I really don't think any of us here as reasonable historians are quite that far apart in our views that art and for that matter most sources of data and record of historical events may not always be entirely accurate. While it seems clear that the main issue is trying to establish the motivations and perspective which might lead to any inaccuracy or deliberate nuance or 'spin' on the source, obviously these are opinions, and should be accepted as such.

I try to make it clear when I am presenting material that my comments are my opinion or view, not necessarily a matter of irreproachable fact. The only time I can assert otherwise is if I actually witnessed the event.

Ironically, as most law enforcement and investigative authorities will tell you, even eye witnesses are often not entirely accurate, thus they rely on cross investigation to compare details.

Ariel, thank you for your comment on my story, which indeed I meant in that very way, to be instructive.

A note regarding Wikipedia, which I confess to using a great deal. It is what I refer to as a 'benchmark' source, presenting material on a topic and hopefully with cited sources. From here the research BEGINS as these are checked and cross checked with others as networking through the materials moves forward.
Actually, art and Wikipedia in this sense have this in common!

Actually the Wikipedia entry concerning the ghastly practice of execution by tying to cannon muzzle and firing seems well covered, and the pages of cited references and extensive bibliography have well set the path for any residual research. It does seem the practice certainly was not British alone just as most cases of these kinds of grim circumstance are not restricted to any particular nationality or other denomination.