Balinese Keris hilt ID

[David]

Just to add to the confusion here is a hilt from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC that it also identifies as Bayu. Seems questionable to me for a few reasons, but you would think that a museum of such high reputation would considerer sources and information more cautiously.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Just to add to the confusion here is a hilt from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC that it also identifies as Bayu. Seems questionable to me for a few reasons, but you would think that a museum of such high reputation would considerer sources and information more cautiously.

I am not a museum curator but this style of hilt is usually identified as Ravana from the leaf or sword in his right hand
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

I am not a museum curator but this style of hilt is usually identified as Ravana from the leaf or sword in his right hand
Regards

Well, i was going to suggest that, but giving the line of our conversation here thought it best just to post it without much comment.

[Battara]

Even keeping in mind Alan's wonderful and insightful history summary (and you did a great job, thank you), I would still say that this Met example is Ravana and well. I'm with you Jean.

[mariusgmioc]

Regarding the example from the Metropolitan, LaRocca identifies a very similar figure featured on the cover of his book, as Rahvana.

http://www.metmuseum.org/research/me...Arms_and_Armor

[A. G. Maisey]

I am not arguing against this recent character being Ravana.

However, an opinion without evidence to support that opinion is only as good as the person giving the opinion.

Since none of us here are noted authorities on the identification of the characters shown in Balinese totogan hilts, may I suggest that when we give an opinion, we support that opinion with either evidence or rational argument?

[David]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Regarding the example from the Metropolitan, LaRocca identifies a very similar figure featured on the cover of his book, as Rahvana.

True, people attribute. Even supposedly learned people attribute. That still doesn't mean that they are ultimately correct. I do wonder where that leaves us as collectors though. While i fully understand Alan's reasoning on why we cannot really know the true intention of the maker and the actual purpose behind the creation of any specific figural hilt does that mean that these hilts defy collector categorization completely. There are, of course, good points and bad points to the concept of categorization in this field. We may not know, for instance, if a hilt that appears in this classic form we have in the past IDed as Bayu was intended to actually be Bayu, or perhaps represent the owners ancestor in the form of Bayu or whether it is just an artistic representation that happens to follow this form we know as Bayu. But what about for the sake of communication between collectors. For instance, i am fairly sure that if i said to many of you that i have an interesting Bali Bayu hilt, in all likelihood you would have a pretty good idea of what to expect before i finally present a photo of said hilt. This seems to be the way it goes in most collecting. We name things so that we have a common understanding of what we are talking about with each other.

[Rick]

Carvers also make handles that defy classification.
In a hundred years maybe this guy will have a official name.

[Rocarnice]

Hi there,

Got interested in this thread as I have a Keris Bali Hilt (Ukiran Pemangku) that seems to have similarly evolved as the silver hilt (Bayu) depicted by Jean on 19.01.
I once asked the forum 10 years ago, but at that time no clear pictures were available to ID the blade with Kinatah; Not much couldn't be said of the Hilt either.
Perhaps someone of you could tell me more about this Hilt?
Hope the pictures attached are clear.

Thanks.

[A. G. Maisey]

Rocanice, you already have the correct name and description for this hilt:- you have called it an "Ukiran Pemangku".

As it is Balinese, it should not be called "ukiran" as this is Javanese terminology, it should be called "danganan", however, the "pemangku" (or more correctly "pamangku") is correct.

A "pamangku" is a priest, or to be completely correct a Balinese temple priest, as there are other types of priest.

This hilt can be given as:-danganan Pemangku.

The figure is identifiable by the beard and moustache, the kindly and/or happy face, the religious implement in the left hand.

The name you have given the photograph is " Keris Bali ukiran Brahmaan":- a pamangku is a member of the Brahman Caste, so this is also an adequate description of the hilt.

[Jean]

Hello Rocarnice,
Nice hilt, made from ebony or buffalo horn?
The style of hair is not common for a hilt depicting a priest, see more standard specimens attached.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep Jean, true:- Balinese priests don't usually sport Siciliano facial hair, but don't doubt for one moment that we are looking at somebody's representation of a pamangku, its just that art trumps tradition. How can you create a hilt like Rocanice's if you don't control the whiskers?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yep Jean, true:- Balinese priests don't usually sport Siciliano facial hair, but don't doubt for one moment that we are looking at somebody's representation of a pamangku, its just that art trumps tradition. How can you create a hilt like Rocanice's if you don't control the whiskers?

Oops, sorry Alan, I meant the style of hairdressing (kind of diadem versus tiara), not the beard....

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... but don't doubt for one moment that we are looking at somebody's representation of a pamangku, its just that art trumps tradition.

Given our previous discussion on the "Bayu" hilts how can we be sure beyond doubt that the artist's intention was to create pamangku here rather than it merely being an "artistic" work not completely connected to this character?

[krissman]

The Arms and Armor Department at the Metropolitan Museum of Art has a number of Indonesian weapons in its collections, even though they are clearly secondary to the scope of its primary collections (European and Japanese arms and armor). Moreover there is no one on the staff who is particularly knowledgeable about the subject. What information they do have comes either from the catalog records created by George Cameron Stone (author of STONE'S GLOSSARY, who left the Indonesian pieces and much of the rest of his personal collection to the Museum), or from staff research in the standard books on the subject. I am pretty sure that any attributions given to a hilt by the Museum would have been based on those sources and not because the curator had any particular expertise in the subject.

My son is a conservator in the Department of Arms and Armor and I try to visit him several times a year. During those trips I spend a day or so in the Department's library, looking at the collections and trying to answer any questions they may have about these "strange" pieces that they don't really know much about. They are gradually photographing all of their collections. Images of all of the Museum's collections are being posted online with whatever information (often minimal) they happen to have. The quality of that information varies widely depending on which department posted it. The public is invited to view the photos; scholars and collectors may suggest changes or improvements to catalog data if they see fit. Priority is given to posting online images of objects found in exhibits or museum publications, so there aren't very many Indonesian weapons up yet. The keris hilt on the cover of the GODS OF WAR book mentioned above is online, identified as a "dagger handle." The Museum avoids using "native" words to identify objects, particularly when two or more terms, such as "keris" vs. "kris", are being used by the collector and scholarly communities. Generic terms--dagger, sword, halberd, etc.--are used instead. To see what has been posted, follow this link and enter your search terms: http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection.

[David]

Thanks for this info Krissman.
The hilt in question was identified elsewhere on the MM of Art as Bayu, in another area. I would have to do some digging to find it again. However i am absolutely sure of that since i am the one who found that entry.
It is possible that they have since taken it down or changed their description.
You are absolutely correct that the museum heavily favors its European arms over Keris.