A composite 17 th century sword for comment.

[cornelistromp]

it is a composite sword but certainly no theater or parade sword.

Guillons, flat in the plan of the blade and spatulate in shape occur in the first half of the 17th century. see attachment of a Solingen 1 1/2 sword.
the engraving of the cross is very characteristic for the first half of the 17th century, several hilts with this style of engraving are known to me.
The blade in geometry seems to me early 17th century and seems to fit the guard like a hand in a glove, which may imply that the guard for is made
for the blade.

The pommel is earlier and belongs to a type of 1 1/2 half sword which appeared briefly in the 16th century. it certainly does not belong to the guard. see attachment for this type of sword, and for a similar pommel .
I will post an example of such a 16thC sword with this specific pommel later.

So basically you have an early 17thC sword, with an older pommel ( grip is a later replacement) ......not bad.


best,
Jasper

[Cerjak]

Thank you Jasper
Yes, to me this blade belonged to this guard do you have an example to show for a similar sword with the correct pommel ?
Also what is your opinion about salingen mark ?
Best
Jean-Luc

[cornelistromp]

mmm..................all 17th century pommels are possible but a (flattened in the plan of the blade) globular or reversed egg-shaped pommel engraved as the guard would look nice.



pommel types such as in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17320

mefecit salingen= Solingen made me.

I cannot enter my books but in wapenhandelinghe by jacop de gheyn is a sword of your type if I remember well.

[fernando]

.

[Henk]

Salingen is a quarter or neighbourhood of Dortmund, Germany.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Henk

Salingen is a quarter or neighbourhood of Dortmund, Germany.

I have also seen that, Henk .

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

.

Hi Fernando and Henk,
So it could be Hans (sword smith ) from Salingen in Germany ?

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

it is a composite sword but certainly no theater or parade sword.

Guillons, flat in the plan of the blade and spatulate in shape occur in the first half of the 17th century. see attachment of a Solingen 1 1/2 sword.
the engraving of the cross is very characteristic for the first half of the 17th century, several hilts with this style of engraving are known to me.
The blade in geometry seems to me early 17th century and seems to fit the guard like a hand in a glove, which may imply that the guard for is made
for the blade.

The pommel is earlier and belongs to a type of 1 1/2 half sword which appeared briefly in the 16th century. it certainly does not belong to the guard. see attachment for this type of sword, and for a similar pommel .
I will post an example of such a 16thC sword with this specific pommel later.

So basically you have an early 17thC sword, with an older pommel ( grip is a later replacement) ......not bad.


best,
Jasper

this is an example of the 16th century sword that belongs to your pommel, the same type of drawing of Hans Doering in post # 5
the blade with two short and one long Fullers characterizes several one+ a half handers in the 16th century.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

this is an example of the 16th century sword that belongs to your pommel, the same type of drawing of Hans Doering in post # 5
the blade with two short and one long Fullers characterizes several one+ a half handers in the 16th century.

Thank you Jasper,
There is no doubt that you have a large documentation and also an outstanding knowledge about the typology of swords components from this period.


Best
Jean-Luc

[cornelistromp]

Iam still learning, Jean Luc

attachement: Jacob de Gheyns Wapenhandelinghe van Roers Musquetten ende spiessen, 1607

if you look to the hiltform a simple cross and a knuckle guard, in the 17th century.

[CSinTX]

Please forgive me and I hate to be a negative Nancy but I just dont see an early piece here.

The pommel- Looks 20th or maybe 19th century. Look at the sharp edges that appear modern machine made.

The blade- The metal appears old but the script in the blade looks like a modern 20th century font that you would see on something modern. I dont think I've ever seen a script or font like this on anything older than 19th C.

[cornelistromp]

I found out in the meantime, that there's not many study for the simple crosshilted sword in the post-medieval period.
according to Claude Blair ( An English sword with an ottoman blade in the swiss national museum) this hiltvorm was in the civilian and military dress till the mid of the 16th century but there after seems to have gone out of fashion, until in the beginning of the 17th century it returned again mainly in the civilian dress.
the available evidence for the use of Such swords in the 17th century actually only comes from England.

See attached a simple English cross hilted sword with a similar paddle shaped guard as the sword under discussion, simple in form of course not the decoration.

me fecit salingen seems a corruption of mefecit solingen, I do not believe salingen is the name of a sword maker, because often the first and last name of the sword maker was mentioned in the inscription.See an example of a rapier, 1630 in the V & A museum, monogram; inscribed ‘Me Fecit Salingen’ and inlaid with a running wolf.
Also an example inscribed mefecit Solingen.

best,
jasper

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

I found out in the meantime, that there's not many study for the simple crosshilted sword in the post-medieval period.
according to Claude Blair ( An English sword with an ottoman blade in the swiss national museum) this hiltvorm was in the civilian and military dress till the mid of the 16th century but there after seems to have gone out of fashion, until in the beginning of the 17th century it returned again mainly in the civilian dress.
the available evidence for the use of Such swords in the 17th century actually only comes from England.

See attached a simple English cross hilted sword with a similar paddle shaped guard as the sword under discussion, simple in form of course not the decoration.

me fecit salingen seems a corruption of mefecit solingen, I do not believe salingen is the name of a sword maker, because often the first and last name of the sword maker was mentioned in the inscription.See an example of a rapier, 1630 in the V & A museum, monogram; inscribed ‘Me Fecit Salingen’ and inlaid with a running wolf.
Also an example inscribed mefecit Solingen.

best,
jasper

Hi Jasper
You did a perfect job I can see that your thought about the type of pommel compatible with this sword in post 7 was exact:
A Globular pommel would be perfect with this sword.
Thank you again for the pictures.

best
Jean-Luc

[RobertGuy]

Originally Posted by CSinTX

Please forgive me and I hate to be a negative Nancy but I just dont see an early piece here.

The pommel- Looks 20th or maybe 19th century. Look at the sharp edges that appear modern machine made.

The blade- The metal appears old but the script in the blade looks like a modern 20th century font that you would see on something modern. I dont think I've ever seen a script or font like this on anything older than 19th C.

I must admit that I agree. The cross piece also seems nicely detailed but is a casting rather than being chassed/engraved. If it were the patterning would continue around the arms. The lettering looks to be acid etched rather than properly engraved as well. How deep is the lettering? I'm thinking an oldish blade strangely dressed up to be something better.

[ulfberth]

Detailed pictures of the pommel, the crossguard and the blade could help.
The sword also seems to be covered in old varnish or hardened oil.
Its best to remove this as it does not ad to the intrinsic value of the sword and it would allow to take clear pictures .... its not like removing an old patina and
in this case ther is no old patina under the varnish or grease.
These are just suggestions of course.

kind regards

Ulfberth

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

I must admit that I agree. The cross piece also seems nicely detailed but is a casting rather than being chassed/engraved. If it were the patterning would continue around the arms. The lettering looks to be acid etched rather than properly engraved as well. How deep is the lettering? I'm thinking an oldish blade strangely dressed up to be something better.

as far as I know, scrolling foliage paterns engraved ensuite, actually never passes through the narrow edges of flat guards to the reverse side.
however in rare cases on the narrow up and down side sometimes is a border of points, hammered in or encrusted.

RobertGuy would you please post an example where the engraved foliage pattern continues around the flat arms of a hilt, that would be very interesting ?

re: inscription in the blade
this must be engraved in relief and not etched on the surface of the blade of course.
maybe Jean Luc can post high res pictures which could provide more clarity of all the components as proposed by Ulfberth

best,