Kris question to the knowledgeables

MABAGANI · 16th January 2006, 06:11 PM

As mentioned, from the proto keris, forms branch off depending on the timeline and region, so it would be interesting to see a family tree with the various keris and kris to get a clearer understanding when symbols and types took place. In regards to the Moro kris, evidence from artifacts and written materials reveal ties to Indian culture and parallel interconnection to Indonesian kingdoms. Its also important to take in account cultural relationships to China throughout Moro history. In the early 15th century Sulu "kings" were recognized by Chinese royals when an entourage paid a visit to the mainland. Of interest, there is a village in China that trace their heritage to the early kings, one of the kings died on the voyage, some of the relatives stayed behind and the following generations to this day still take care of the tomb of their ancestor. The conversion to Islam in Mindanao and Sulu as well as the parts of the Visayas and Luzon began in the mid 15th and 16th centuries. From the early proto keris two distinct forms develop into what we call here the kris and the barung swords in the Moro regions.
http://www.geocities.com/sinupan/batara.htm
http://www.china-sd.net/eng/sdtravel/scenery/26.asp
http://www.bangsamoro.info/uploads/photos/26.jpg

BSMStar · 16th January 2006, 07:41 PM

Ok Pusaka.... you have sold me, that at the very least... you theory is worthy of further research. After all gentlemen, it is a theory and as a theory, worthy of testing.

Finding the earliest example of this style Greneng will give you an approximate "date" or date of influence. While not an absolute "test," it may give a clue if it occurred before of after the Hindu influence.

It may be a starting point.

Pusaka · 16th January 2006, 11:04 PM

Is it possible that the Indonesian dha is derived from Sanskrit?

Why does Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo trace his linage back to the Indian Majapahit Empire? Does this not alone suggest that India played an important role in the history of keris?

nechesh · 17th January 2006, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Is it possible that the Indonesian dha is derived from Sanskrit?

Why does Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo trace his linage back to the Indian Majapahit Empire? Does this not alone suggest that India played an important role in the history of keris?

Pusaka, to answer your first question, yes, the Javanese (not Indonesian) alphabet and Sanskrit do seem to have some common forms in their alphabets.
In terms of your second question, i don't think you have really met much resistance with your theory that the Javanese Mojopahit empire was linked to Indian influences. My argument was over the specificity of you AUM claim. I agree with you that the roots of the keris most probably lie in India. But that is just the roots. The ricikan that we have been discussing doesn't appear until sometime around the 14thC, so they were most probably developed in Jawa, not India. But the influences seem to be clearly there.

Kiai Carita · 18th January 2006, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Is it possible that the Indonesian dha is derived from Sanskrit?

Why does Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo trace his linage back to the Indian Majapahit Empire? Does this not alone suggest that India played an important role in the history of keris?

Hi there Pusaka,

The Majapahit Empire was Jawanese not Indian and although it was influenced by India and Hinduism it also took influence from Buddhism and China. Islamic settlements were also present in the Majapahit capital. Long before Majapahit the kings in Jawa had declared that Syiwa and Buddha are the same and they created a new syncretic religion based on this idea.

Cheers,
KC

MABAGANI · 18th January 2006, 11:17 AM

If one takes the Indra stories literally, the train of thought goes that they may have been extraterrestrial beings or from past lost civilizations before the great flood. That's pre present day human history as we know it, so how would that fit into the possible OM theory and Majapahit to modern keris timeline?

16th January 2006, 06:11 PM	#1
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	As mentioned, from the proto keris, forms branch off depending on the timeline and region, so it would be interesting to see a family tree with the various keris and kris to get a clearer understanding when symbols and types took place. In regards to the Moro kris, evidence from artifacts and written materials reveal ties to Indian culture and parallel interconnection to Indonesian kingdoms. Its also important to take in account cultural relationships to China throughout Moro history. In the early 15th century Sulu "kings" were recognized by Chinese royals when an entourage paid a visit to the mainland. Of interest, there is a village in China that trace their heritage to the early kings, one of the kings died on the voyage, some of the relatives stayed behind and the following generations to this day still take care of the tomb of their ancestor. The conversion to Islam in Mindanao and Sulu as well as the parts of the Visayas and Luzon began in the mid 15th and 16th centuries. From the early proto keris two distinct forms develop into what we call here the kris and the barung swords in the Moro regions. http://www.geocities.com/sinupan/batara.htm http://www.china-sd.net/eng/sdtravel/scenery/26.asp http://www.bangsamoro.info/uploads/photos/26.jpg Last edited by MABAGANI; 17th January 2006 at 06:21 AM. Reason: sites added

16th January 2006, 07:41 PM	#2
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Worthy of research Ok Pusaka.... you have sold me, that at the very least... you theory is worthy of further research. After all gentlemen, it is a theory and as a theory, worthy of testing. Finding the earliest example of this style Greneng will give you an approximate "date" or date of influence. While not an absolute "test," it may give a clue if it occurred before of after the Hindu influence. It may be a starting point.

16th January 2006, 11:04 PM	#3
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Is it possible that the Indonesian dha is derived from Sanskrit? Why does Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo trace his linage back to the Indian Majapahit Empire? Does this not alone suggest that India played an important role in the history of keris?

18th January 2006, 11:17 AM	#6
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	If one takes the Indra stories literally, the train of thought goes that they may have been extraterrestrial beings or from past lost civilizations before the great flood. That's pre present day human history as we know it, so how would that fit into the possible OM theory and Majapahit to modern keris timeline?