Two new (to me) Keris from Epray for comment

David · 14th January 2016, 07:48 PM

Hi Leif. Sorry to see no one has commented yet. Truth be told these aren't particularly anything to write home about and you have probably already said all that needs to be said about them. You are correct that the first one (on left) is what has come to be known as a "soldier's keris" from Madura. Keris in this style dress are often thought of as early souvenir items for returning dutch soldiers. They rarely carry anything beyond a mediocre blade. This one is a pretty low end carving though. I have seen much nicer examples and have always thought i would like to add one of the nicer examples of this style to my collection one day. I am not convinced that the figurative hilt is supposed to be a female figure. What do you base that on?
Your second keris is perhaps a bit better. You are again correct, this dress is Surakarta. The best thing about this dress is that the top sheath and stem are carved all in one piece (iras) which is unusual. It looks to me like the wood needs a bit of TLC. The blade has some deep cut features, but that look kind of sloppy and stiff to me. I would also perhaps put this one in the 20th century as the seller suggested. Not a terrible keris, but nothing extraordinary.

asomotif · 14th January 2016, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

The best thing about this dress is that the top sheath and stem are carved all in one piece (iras) which is unusual.

I am not sure about the "iras" scabbard.
A picture without the pendok can help to be sure.

David · 15th January 2016, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

I am not sure about the "iras" scabbard.
A picture without the pendok can help to be sure.

Possibly, but that line looks more like a deep scratch in the wood. Seems a bit low and at a strange angel to be a joint between gander and wrongko.

Jean · 15th January 2016, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Possibly, but that line looks more like a deep scratch in the wood. Seems a bit low and at a strange angel to be a joint between gander and wrongko.

Hi David,
I agree that the warangka looks iras and about what you say about these 2 krisses. I attach the pic of a better madurese "soldier" kris for reference.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 15th January 2016, 09:35 AM

A gabilan keris if normal size, a brahmana rsi if large size.

Examples in Suminep kraton museum.

The originals, such as Jean's, were not souvenir productions, but a legitimate Madurese form, probably a folk art, used by the common people, this is supposition on my part, I have no evidence to back this up, only what I have gathered from local conversations.

David · 15th January 2016, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The originals, such as Jean's, were not souvenir productions, but a legitimate Madurese form, probably a folk art, used by the common people, this is supposition on my part, I have no evidence to back this up, only what I have gathered from local conversations.

Yes Alan, i have always imaged that this style dress had an origin as a legitimate form, but like you cannot show any evidence to prove the case. But i have seen a few really lovely carvings of these lion sheaths that don't look touristy at all. I believe you have posted some nice examples yourself in the past.

harrywagner · 15th January 2016, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Possibly, but that line looks more like a deep scratch in the wood. Seems a bit low and at a strange angel to be a joint between gander and wrongko.

Maybe, but from a woodworkers perspective that is exactly how you would want to do it. The angle increases the surface area of the joint which makes it stronger.

David · 15th January 2016, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Maybe, but from a woodworkers perspective that is exactly how you would want to do it. The angle increases the surface area of the joint which makes it stronger.

Harry, while i do understand what you are saying, if you spend some time looking at how the gander is generally fitted to the wrongko in these sheaths from this area i think you will see that it is just not the general woodworker's perspective from this culture.

Gustav · 15th January 2016, 11:04 PM

Actually the place and angle for a joint line here is not unusual, for Solo style wrongko. For a better taste the angle could be perhaps even steeper and the line located a bit deeper.

David · 15th January 2016, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Actually the place and angle for a joint line here is not unusual, for Solo style wrongko. For a better taste the angle could be perhaps even steeper and the line located a bit deeper.

You will have to show me examples of that Gustav. On most of the solo sheaths that i have the angle of the joint is less severe if there is an angle at all and the joint does not take place this far down the gandar. With some the joint is right up into the wrongko.
I am still pretty convinced, however, that this sheath is all one piece. Perhaps Leif will get back to us soon to confirm one way or the other.

14th January 2016, 07:48 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Hi Leif. Sorry to see no one has commented yet. Truth be told these aren't particularly anything to write home about and you have probably already said all that needs to be said about them. You are correct that the first one (on left) is what has come to be known as a "soldier's keris" from Madura. Keris in this style dress are often thought of as early souvenir items for returning dutch soldiers. They rarely carry anything beyond a mediocre blade. This one is a pretty low end carving though. I have seen much nicer examples and have always thought i would like to add one of the nicer examples of this style to my collection one day. I am not convinced that the figurative hilt is supposed to be a female figure. What do you base that on? Your second keris is perhaps a bit better. You are again correct, this dress is Surakarta. The best thing about this dress is that the top sheath and stem are carved all in one piece (iras) which is unusual. It looks to me like the wood needs a bit of TLC. The blade has some deep cut features, but that look kind of sloppy and stiff to me. I would also perhaps put this one in the 20th century as the seller suggested. Not a terrible keris, but nothing extraordinary.

15th January 2016, 09:35 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	A gabilan keris if normal size, a brahmana rsi if large size. Examples in Suminep kraton museum. The originals, such as Jean's, were not souvenir productions, but a legitimate Madurese form, probably a folk art, used by the common people, this is supposition on my part, I have no evidence to back this up, only what I have gathered from local conversations.

15th January 2016, 11:04 PM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Actually the place and angle for a joint line here is not unusual, for Solo style wrongko. For a better taste the angle could be perhaps even steeper and the line located a bit deeper.