European blades in India

ariel · 13th January 2016, 04:03 PM

Estcrh:

Many thanks for the article. Finally, we have a well-researched review for our information and education. No more fantasies, reliances on "personal logic", poorly translated citations of citations and the rest of pseudo-scientific junk. This article neatly resolves all issues raised in this discussion.

I was unaware of this article and wish to express my gratitude to you.

Mercenary · 13th January 2016, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

No more fantasies, reliances on "personal logic", poorly translated citations of citations and the rest of pseudo-scientific junk.

Dear Ariel
I totally agree with you. This was enough:

Quote:

If I had to choose a sword for a battle, my absolute preference would be for a European one rather than Indian. Interestingly, the Indians thought the same: they mass -produced blades with fake European markings as a sign of the highest quality.

Quote:

In contrast, industrial production of British swords was aimed at (and actually achieved) complete uniformity, solid quality and reliability

Quote:

The questions have been answered to the satisfaction of every reasonable person and we are just repeating ourselves.

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2016, 07:00 PM

Well done Estcrh!!!

Those lines perfectly respond to the original theme here. The rest of the discussion neatly describes the variables surrounding it, but this is an excellent on topic resolution.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th January 2016, 08:00 PM

Salaams estcrh and All, I have seldom seen such a brilliant report in a paper that uncovers the secrets of Indian sword production and the mirage of the European makers...and with a vast Bibliography in support. I need to read it again ...thus its place is now firmly in Forum Library...so it can be held up and viewed at will and hopefully referred to in the many debates on Indian weapons. This paper is an Ethnographic Gem.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 14th January 2016, 06:56 PM

I also vote for the permanent placement of this article in the Forum Library.

Good initiative, Ibrahim!!!

estcrh · 15th January 2016, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams estcrh and All, I have seldom seen such a brilliant report in a paper that uncovers the secrets of Indian sword production and the mirage of the European makers...and with a vast Bibliography in support. I need to read it again ...thus its place is now firmly in Forum Library...so it can be held up and viewed at will and hopefully referred to in the many debates on Indian weapons. This paper is an Ethnographic Gem.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim, agreed and a good idea!!!

ariel · 16th January 2016, 01:50 AM

I sent a formal request to Andrew to include this chapter in our common library.

I suspect ther will be no "nays" :-)

Everybody, have a great weekend!

Helleri · 16th January 2016, 03:55 AM

Wow...this really digs into it. What I like about it the most is it puts it in the context of free market competition. A lot of discussion on this tends to put forward the idea that every one at a certain time felt a certain way for a very specific reason. But these were people. They were just as dynamic in their thoughts and sentiments as us.

It reminds me of this one time at the flea when I sold someone a purse I made. They said what they really appreciate about it is that it's American made. And the only response I had for her was "yeah, but my tools are made in China". And we were both sort of like 'it can't be helped'. And we both just kind of smiled and shrugged. It is what it is....Point being I think that it's easy to put these peoples lives and culture into a narrative and forget that our situation with imports vs. domestic and how we might treat it or feel about it is nothing new.

But beyond the outlying thrust of this article. There are a lot of small interesting and helpful things in this article. Looks like we could get as lot of good terminology from this. for instance the possibility of referring to imported blades into India as "Jahaji". Much like we already refer to the ornate gilding on some pieces as "Koftgari".

I am sure this is going to be one of those reads where every time you go through it again you find another layer of value to it.

fernando · 21st March 2016, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I sent a formal request to Andrew to include this chapter in our common library.

I suspect ther will be no "nays" :-)

Everybody, have a great weekend!

Ariel, you have PM.

fernando · 23rd March 2016, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I sent a formal request to Andrew to include this chapter in our common library.

I suspect ther will be no "nays" :-)

Everybody, have a great weekend!

Chapter finally extracted from a large PDF book. As it contains vital information for sword collectors in general, it is already included in the European section 'Classics'. Ian will see that it will also be held in the Ethno 'Classics'.

A new thread for the purpose was started:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...808#post197808

13th January 2016, 04:03 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Estcrh: Many thanks for the article. Finally, we have a well-researched review for our information and education. No more fantasies, reliances on "personal logic", poorly translated citations of citations and the rest of pseudo-scientific junk. This article neatly resolves all issues raised in this discussion. I was unaware of this article and wish to express my gratitude to you. Last edited by ariel; 14th January 2016 at 12:31 AM.

13th January 2016, 07:00 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Well done Estcrh!!! Those lines perfectly respond to the original theme here. The rest of the discussion neatly describes the variables surrounding it, but this is an excellent on topic resolution.

13th January 2016, 08:00 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams estcrh and All, I have seldom seen such a brilliant report in a paper that uncovers the secrets of Indian sword production and the mirage of the European makers...and with a vast Bibliography in support. I need to read it again ...thus its place is now firmly in Forum Library...so it can be held up and viewed at will and hopefully referred to in the many debates on Indian weapons. This paper is an Ethnographic Gem. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

14th January 2016, 06:56 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I also vote for the permanent placement of this article in the Forum Library. Good initiative, Ibrahim!!!

16th January 2016, 01:50 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I sent a formal request to Andrew to include this chapter in our common library. I suspect ther will be no "nays" :-) Everybody, have a great weekend!

16th January 2016, 03:55 AM	#8
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Wow...this really digs into it. What I like about it the most is it puts it in the context of free market competition. A lot of discussion on this tends to put forward the idea that every one at a certain time felt a certain way for a very specific reason. But these were people. They were just as dynamic in their thoughts and sentiments as us. It reminds me of this one time at the flea when I sold someone a purse I made. They said what they really appreciate about it is that it's American made. And the only response I had for her was "yeah, but my tools are made in China". And we were both sort of like 'it can't be helped'. And we both just kind of smiled and shrugged. It is what it is....Point being I think that it's easy to put these peoples lives and culture into a narrative and forget that our situation with imports vs. domestic and how we might treat it or feel about it is nothing new. But beyond the outlying thrust of this article. There are a lot of small interesting and helpful things in this article. Looks like we could get as lot of good terminology from this. for instance the possibility of referring to imported blades into India as "Jahaji". Much like we already refer to the ornate gilding on some pieces as "Koftgari". I am sure this is going to be one of those reads where every time you go through it again you find another layer of value to it.