A GERMAN FIGHTING TWO HAND SWORD LATE 16 TH CENTURY

ulfberth · 11th January 2016, 04:30 PM

Hi Jasper,

Why do you get so defensive if anyone questions you're “knowledge” ?

I can ask you the same kind of questions, like you said the sword was homogeneous and later on you say : the composition of the steel is never matching between blade and hilt.this is the case with virtually all the 16th century swords.so they are never "homogeneous"
Ask yourself this , is this really the goal of this forum ?

I gave my opinion based on the info at hand and I adjusted my opinion after new and more detailed information.
You give me the impression you are not satisfied.
Do I have a say in this?
Are you asking me or telling me?
So, what do I get out of this?”
Are you really expecting me to....do Do what exactly ?

Kind regards

kind regards

Ulfberth

fernando · 11th January 2016, 04:53 PM

Maybe tossing some light discrepancies over the shoulders and get back to a path of harmony ...

ulfberth · 11th January 2016, 05:16 PM

Amen !

cornelistromp · 11th January 2016, 05:27 PM

@Ulfberth

homogeneous in arms means that all components, pommel grip guard and blade, from the very beginning have been together, it has nothing to do with the metal composition.

but let's shake hands because we both, very much, like antique swords.

in Holland we say; zand erover.

kind regards from Amsterdam,
Jasper

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2016, 09:36 PM

I would just like to say that the object of discussion is to do exactly what has been achieved here. We have the benefit of the knowledge and hands on expertise of both Ulfberth and Jasper, and while opposed at first, bringing in better discernible evidence aligned those opinions .
In my opinion an excellent outcome ( and very happy for Jean Luc)!

Best of all, in following the opposing views as these things unfolded gave me (and I hope others) a valuable lesson in the metallurgical aspects of observing these old swords.

Differences in opinion should not be taken personally, especially here where there are so many variables and many (like me) are actually students in varying degree. I know I never stop learning!!!

Thank you guys! Jean Luc for sharing this, and Ulfberth and Jasper for bringing forth so many factors for consideration

ulfberth · 12th January 2016, 06:51 AM

Hi Jim,

You bring us wise words, I think no one could have said it any better !

thanks

Ulfberth

Lee · 12th January 2016, 05:17 PM

Just as a note for the benefit of some of the less experienced members and lurkers who may be following this thread: It is extremely difficult to impossible for even the most experienced connoisseur to make very fine distinctions from photos, even if excellent, especially at internet resolutions. It is hard enough with the actual item in hand. I should think the components of this marvelous sword have been together for some time, though my own level of expertise within this time frame is insufficient to form much of an opinion beyond that.

I have also enjoyed the opportunity of being exposed to the reasoning of participants in this thread that are more experienced than myself in evaluating such an item.

Dangerously generalizing, I have noticed that hilt components often do survive with a different patination than the blade even when there is confidence of the varying elements having started together.

Acid cleaning does give a 'dead' dull grey matte surface rarely pleasing to an observer. The 'cure' sometimes given is re-burnishing with loss of even more material and detail.

I believe that the sword shown at the top of the second page from Oakeshott's ROtMS was in his estate and is now at the Oakeshott Institute.

12th January 2016, 05:17 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	Very Nice Sword, Indeed Just as a note for the benefit of some of the less experienced members and lurkers who may be following this thread: It is extremely difficult to impossible for even the most experienced connoisseur to make very fine distinctions from photos, even if excellent, especially at internet resolutions. It is hard enough with the actual item in hand. I should think the components of this marvelous sword have been together for some time, though my own level of expertise within this time frame is insufficient to form much of an opinion beyond that. I have also enjoyed the opportunity of being exposed to the reasoning of participants in this thread that are more experienced than myself in evaluating such an item. Dangerously generalizing, I have noticed that hilt components often do survive with a different patination than the blade even when there is confidence of the varying elements having started together. Acid cleaning does give a 'dead' dull grey matte surface rarely pleasing to an observer. The 'cure' sometimes given is re-burnishing with loss of even more material and detail. I believe that the sword shown at the top of the second page from Oakeshott's ROtMS was in his estate and is now at the Oakeshott Institute.

11th January 2016, 04:30 PM	#1
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 424	Hi Jasper, Why do you get so defensive if anyone questions you're “knowledge” ? I can ask you the same kind of questions, like you said the sword was homogeneous and later on you say : the composition of the steel is never matching between blade and hilt.this is the case with virtually all the 16th century swords.so they are never "homogeneous" Ask yourself this , is this really the goal of this forum ? I gave my opinion based on the info at hand and I adjusted my opinion after new and more detailed information. You give me the impression you are not satisfied. Do I have a say in this? Are you asking me or telling me? So, what do I get out of this?” Are you really expecting me to....do Do what exactly ? Kind regards kind regards Ulfberth

11th January 2016, 04:53 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Maybe tossing some light discrepancies over the shoulders and get back to a path of harmony ...

11th January 2016, 05:16 PM	#3
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 424	Amen !

11th January 2016, 05:27 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	@Ulfberth homogeneous in arms means that all components, pommel grip guard and blade, from the very beginning have been together, it has nothing to do with the metal composition. but let's shake hands because we both, very much, like antique swords. in Holland we say; zand erover. kind regards from Amsterdam, Jasper

11th January 2016, 09:36 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I would just like to say that the object of discussion is to do exactly what has been achieved here. We have the benefit of the knowledge and hands on expertise of both Ulfberth and Jasper, and while opposed at first, bringing in better discernible evidence aligned those opinions . In my opinion an excellent outcome ( and very happy for Jean Luc)! Best of all, in following the opposing views as these things unfolded gave me (and I hope others) a valuable lesson in the metallurgical aspects of observing these old swords. Differences in opinion should not be taken personally, especially here where there are so many variables and many (like me) are actually students in varying degree. I know I never stop learning!!! Thank you guys! Jean Luc for sharing this, and Ulfberth and Jasper for bringing forth so many factors for consideration

12th January 2016, 06:51 AM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 424	Hi Jim, You bring us wise words, I think no one could have said it any better ! thanks Ulfberth