A GERMAN FIGHTING TWO HAND SWORD LATE 16 TH CENTURY

ulfberth · 8th January 2016, 04:27 PM

Hello Jasper,

The blade usually has more hardness than the guard, the blade shows spots of oxidation all over as is to be expected and the guard almost none.
I have concerns when a sword that has supposedly been assembled for over 500 years with such a difference in patina, if that was the case the patina would be almost the same, the only exception would be if the guard has been blackened and this is not the case.
The style of the pommel and cross guard is indeed correct but that does not prove the are made in the same age.
I had many pictures of this sword from the recent auction, and the reason I chose not to bid was exactly that, it seems more people had the same thoughts because the price it sold for was less than half for a sword like this if all parts would belong together.
Of course I respect each and everyone's opinion, but lets just look at sword a bit more closer, the sword is the object of study, the books are the tool, have look at the evidence at hand and than form an opinion.

Kind regards

ulfberth

Cerjak · 8th January 2016, 05:55 PM

Thank you very much to all of you for your interest and input for this sword.
A special thank to Jim and Jasper, I did not expect so much!
Jim as usually you made a rigorous analysis very well documented to highlight a very interesting fact: This sword had two differents lives, I hope if possible that you could post some scans about your literature's Reference (particularly about double head eagle & walking lion)
Jasper very interesting link about the practice for such sword and of course all the time spend trying to figure out the words, tracing out the letters and of course the translation you made after.
Best

Jean-Luc

CSinTX · 8th January 2016, 07:28 PM

For what it’s worth, I’ll offer my opinion. First, what an impressive piece with such detail and character. I am jealous for sure and would love to have it in my collection.

In my somewhat uneducated opinion, I think the guard and blade have not spent their entire lives together. I know there can be differences in metals with blades often being made separate but there is just too much variation in wear and patina between the blade and the hilt. There is a good bit of deep pitting in the blade that just doesn’t show at all in the hilt. What a great piece though!

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2016, 09:08 PM

Thank you guys for all these responses, and I very much appreciate the kind recognition of the detail I added concerning these most unusual markings.
I will here note that as always my focus is typically toward the historical aspects of the weapons themselves and have always been particularly intrigued by markings as well known here.

I must however note that in the relatively limited experience I have had in handing arms physically, in the cases I have seen, the physical character of metals in corrosion and pitting in often markedly varying.

While all sources I checked in making my comments revealed that the components and features of this sword do seem of the proper period and seem to suggest a German zweihander of third quarter 16th c. However, I am very much inclined to agree that the nature of aging of the metal in the blade vs. the hilt do not seem commensurate.

I would note that this blade certainly does appear to have been a genuine combat blade, but as suggested likely has been refurbished and had some extensive embellishment which would suggest later use in a symbolic sense in the context I also described. This does not dismiss this sword in any way by its later use in such processional or bearing context, but adds most intriguing dimension to it. Rather than being stored away it plausibly continued on as a component of a very unusual and relatively little known organization in Germany.

As noted, the sword has certainly been apart at some point, also it is well known that blades were export items and typically the hilts came from other makers. It does seem unusual that the hilt components follow so closely the proper style of this type sword in its period. However, it does seem possible that other hilts of the form existed in static circumstances and would have been chosen for refurbishing.
That being the best case scenario, the possibility of later production in the case for reproducing similar components remains possible.

As noted the metal in hilts is of course much different than in blades, but still the degree of deterioration must resemble that relative to the blade.
As with all metal production, the composition of ingredients in the forging of these metals must vary according to regions and materials used, but still, corrosion and deterioration should be notably comparable to other parts.

The deterioration in this hilt shows only staining as opposed to the deep areas of pitting which have existed in the blade.

Getting back to the markings, the inscriptions in the fullering do seem commensurate with the blade as it would have been in its original state.
The deeper punzones on the blade with crowned lion and double head eagle with the crescent moon of 'espaderos del rey' on the other seem to have existed in place as well.

The mystical or magical embellishment seems added some time probably much later in the 17th or even perhaps 18th century, when these kinds of markings flourished. Note that the interesting surround of the crescent moon is added in a cosmological radiating fashion. Also the JESUS MARIA
inscription added at the forte seems far from the style of the earlier centuries and was usually placed on the blade...not the forte..
Also, it is noted that religious invocation was often added to that of magical nature to augment or accent the potency of these markings.

The blade itself seems likely a German product and as earlier noted, I have not yet found exact sources for these marks. This may be due to the fact that German makers often used spurious stamps or markings to imitate other centers products. The nature of the double headed eagle suggest somewhat Austrian or Italian character as does the lion with the five point crown which seems Italian. As previously noted the crescent moon of Spanish makers was often copied in Germany.

In all, a wonderfully fascinating sword!

Cerjak · 9th January 2016, 11:17 AM

There is a point not debated yet : the leather grip ,there is no doubt that grip it is an early grip and seems commensurate with the age from the blade.
I have well understood the opinion from ulfberth but I would like to remember to all how many swords were wrongly classified as 19 th century because of such details.
We have in this case the hilt ,grip & pommel who are correct model and patterns for the period ,so doubts persist .

cornelistromp · 9th January 2016, 12:52 PM

I would not worry about it, the patina and pitting need not necessarilyto be equal.
the hilt of this type was originally blackened with a protective layer or browned, hot in oil.
suppose someone in the last 100 years of this 450 year old sword has cleaned the sword "thoroughly".
so mechanically removed the rust of the blade and worsed brushed the black coating of the hilt, because he wanted it to be shiny.
actually because the guard and pommel have a dull leaden look, I think they have been cleaned with acid !

The hilt is over 350 years been protected against oxidation and looks quite new now.
but the blade therein is 450 years exposed to oxygen and shows dark oxidation patches.
the style of your hilt is good, so is the rough forging typical for those two-handed swords. Most 19th/20th-century productions hilts are made too perfect and often wrong in type.
alongside Thom would certainly have placed a note in the description as he would have doubts about the hilt beeing of a later date.

best,
Jasper

ulfberth · 9th January 2016, 02:56 PM

First I think your sword is well worth the money paid for Jean Luc and it is used and re used far longer than most and this ads extra history not less.
I think its better for me to answer only at the questions that are asked, there is no point in giving something ( here being correct information) if they don't actually want it.
My opinion is a bit more than just that, its build with arguments and 38 years of experiance, not it could, what ifs and its possible.
Because in a conversation grounded on possibilities, everything is possible.
For example , it could be cleaned with acid, sure it could ( but the sword of Jean Luc has not been cleaned with acid) , but how are you to judge this Jasper ? How many times have you in your profession used acid for cleaning and saw the results of it first hand ? And if not how are you going to know? From a book ? Or because someone told you....
A few decades ago I , and this is a fact visited a big collection of 16th and 17th C swords and arms and armor in the Netherlands, when I asked the owner why all his swords had such strange landmap swirl like patina on them he honestly stated, oh they were all cleaned with acid long ago thats what they did back than.... This was on august the 31 the year was 1997 aprox. 11 am , and this guy was serious about this, I just shut my mouth.

Now about the grip , I would like to pose a question to anyone with knowledge what about this grip it looks old, is it 17 the C or could it be ?

Kind regards

Ulfberth

ulfberth · 9th January 2016, 03:08 PM

Jasper, could you please show me how a sword cleaned or treated with acid looks ?

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

I would not worry about it, the patina and pitting need not necessarilyto be equal.
the hilt of this type was originally blackened with a protective layer or browned, hot in oil.
suppose someone in the last 100 years of this 450 year old sword has cleaned the sword "thoroughly".
so mechanically removed the rust of the blade and worsed brushed the black coating of the hilt, because he wanted it to be shiny.
actually because the guard and pommel have a dull leaden look, I think they have been cleaned with acid !

The hilt is over 350 years been protected against oxidation and looks quite new now.
but the blade therein is 450 years exposed to oxygen and shows dark oxidation patches.
the style of your hilt is good, so is the rough forging typical for those two-handed swords. Most 19th/20th-century productions hilts are made too perfect and often wrong in type.
alongside Thom would certainly have placed a note in the description as he would have doubts about the hilt beeing of a later date.

best,
Jasper

8th January 2016, 04:27 PM	#1
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 444	Hello Jasper, The blade usually has more hardness than the guard, the blade shows spots of oxidation all over as is to be expected and the guard almost none. I have concerns when a sword that has supposedly been assembled for over 500 years with such a difference in patina, if that was the case the patina would be almost the same, the only exception would be if the guard has been blackened and this is not the case. The style of the pommel and cross guard is indeed correct but that does not prove the are made in the same age. I had many pictures of this sword from the recent auction, and the reason I chose not to bid was exactly that, it seems more people had the same thoughts because the price it sold for was less than half for a sword like this if all parts would belong together. Of course I respect each and everyone's opinion, but lets just look at sword a bit more closer, the sword is the object of study, the books are the tool, have look at the evidence at hand and than form an opinion. Kind regards ulfberth Attached Images

9th January 2016, 12:52 PM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	I would not worry about it, the patina and pitting need not necessarilyto be equal. the hilt of this type was originally blackened with a protective layer or browned, hot in oil. suppose someone in the last 100 years of this 450 year old sword has cleaned the sword "thoroughly". so mechanically removed the rust of the blade and worsed brushed the black coating of the hilt, because he wanted it to be shiny. actually because the guard and pommel have a dull leaden look, I think they have been cleaned with acid ! The hilt is over 350 years been protected against oxidation and looks quite new now. but the blade therein is 450 years exposed to oxygen and shows dark oxidation patches. the style of your hilt is good, so is the rough forging typical for those two-handed swords. Most 19th/20th-century productions hilts are made too perfect and often wrong in type. alongside Thom would certainly have placed a note in the description as he would have doubts about the hilt beeing of a later date. best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 9th January 2016 at 02:08 PM.

9th January 2016, 02:56 PM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 444	First I think your sword is well worth the money paid for Jean Luc and it is used and re used far longer than most and this ads extra history not less. I think its better for me to answer only at the questions that are asked, there is no point in giving something ( here being correct information) if they don't actually want it. My opinion is a bit more than just that, its build with arguments and 38 years of experiance, not it could, what ifs and its possible. Because in a conversation grounded on possibilities, everything is possible. For example , it could be cleaned with acid, sure it could ( but the sword of Jean Luc has not been cleaned with acid) , but how are you to judge this Jasper ? How many times have you in your profession used acid for cleaning and saw the results of it first hand ? And if not how are you going to know? From a book ? Or because someone told you.... A few decades ago I , and this is a fact visited a big collection of 16th and 17th C swords and arms and armor in the Netherlands, when I asked the owner why all his swords had such strange landmap swirl like patina on them he honestly stated, oh they were all cleaned with acid long ago thats what they did back than.... This was on august the 31 the year was 1997 aprox. 11 am , and this guy was serious about this, I just shut my mouth. Now about the grip , I would like to pose a question to anyone with knowledge what about this grip it looks old, is it 17 the C or could it be ? Kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

8th January 2016, 05:55 PM	#2
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Thank you very much to all of you for your interest and input for this sword. A special thank to Jim and Jasper, I did not expect so much! Jim as usually you made a rigorous analysis very well documented to highlight a very interesting fact: This sword had two differents lives, I hope if possible that you could post some scans about your literature's Reference (particularly about double head eagle & walking lion) Jasper very interesting link about the practice for such sword and of course all the time spend trying to figure out the words, tracing out the letters and of course the translation you made after. Best Jean-Luc

8th January 2016, 07:28 PM	#3
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 235	For what it’s worth, I’ll offer my opinion. First, what an impressive piece with such detail and character. I am jealous for sure and would love to have it in my collection. In my somewhat uneducated opinion, I think the guard and blade have not spent their entire lives together. I know there can be differences in metals with blades often being made separate but there is just too much variation in wear and patina between the blade and the hilt. There is a good bit of deep pitting in the blade that just doesn’t show at all in the hilt. What a great piece though!

8th January 2016, 09:08 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,740	Thank you guys for all these responses, and I very much appreciate the kind recognition of the detail I added concerning these most unusual markings. I will here note that as always my focus is typically toward the historical aspects of the weapons themselves and have always been particularly intrigued by markings as well known here. I must however note that in the relatively limited experience I have had in handing arms physically, in the cases I have seen, the physical character of metals in corrosion and pitting in often markedly varying. While all sources I checked in making my comments revealed that the components and features of this sword do seem of the proper period and seem to suggest a German zweihander of third quarter 16th c. However, I am very much inclined to agree that the nature of aging of the metal in the blade vs. the hilt do not seem commensurate. I would note that this blade certainly does appear to have been a genuine combat blade, but as suggested likely has been refurbished and had some extensive embellishment which would suggest later use in a symbolic sense in the context I also described. This does not dismiss this sword in any way by its later use in such processional or bearing context, but adds most intriguing dimension to it. Rather than being stored away it plausibly continued on as a component of a very unusual and relatively little known organization in Germany. As noted, the sword has certainly been apart at some point, also it is well known that blades were export items and typically the hilts came from other makers. It does seem unusual that the hilt components follow so closely the proper style of this type sword in its period. However, it does seem possible that other hilts of the form existed in static circumstances and would have been chosen for refurbishing. That being the best case scenario, the possibility of later production in the case for reproducing similar components remains possible. As noted the metal in hilts is of course much different than in blades, but still the degree of deterioration must resemble that relative to the blade. As with all metal production, the composition of ingredients in the forging of these metals must vary according to regions and materials used, but still, corrosion and deterioration should be notably comparable to other parts. The deterioration in this hilt shows only staining as opposed to the deep areas of pitting which have existed in the blade. Getting back to the markings, the inscriptions in the fullering do seem commensurate with the blade as it would have been in its original state. The deeper punzones on the blade with crowned lion and double head eagle with the crescent moon of 'espaderos del rey' on the other seem to have existed in place as well. The mystical or magical embellishment seems added some time probably much later in the 17th or even perhaps 18th century, when these kinds of markings flourished. Note that the interesting surround of the crescent moon is added in a cosmological radiating fashion. Also the JESUS MARIA inscription added at the forte seems far from the style of the earlier centuries and was usually placed on the blade...not the forte.. Also, it is noted that religious invocation was often added to that of magical nature to augment or accent the potency of these markings. The blade itself seems likely a German product and as earlier noted, I have not yet found exact sources for these marks. This may be due to the fact that German makers often used spurious stamps or markings to imitate other centers products. The nature of the double headed eagle suggest somewhat Austrian or Italian character as does the lion with the five point crown which seems Italian. As previously noted the crescent moon of Spanish makers was often copied in Germany. In all, a wonderfully fascinating sword!

9th January 2016, 11:17 AM	#5
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	There is a point not debated yet : the leather grip ,there is no doubt that grip it is an early grip and seems commensurate with the age from the blade. I have well understood the opinion from ulfberth but I would like to remember to all how many swords were wrongly classified as 19 th century because of such details. We have in this case the hilt ,grip & pommel who are correct model and patterns for the period ,so doubts persist .