Kris question to the knowledgeables

nechesh · 15th January 2006, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

Quite frankly I personally know of one sanskrit OM symbol which I've no idea has been around for how long.

BTW John, Pusaka has already shown us 3 different AUM symbols, of which only one seems to fit fully into his comparison with 19thC style Ron Dha.

nechesh · 15th January 2006, 05:29 PM

Sorry Pusaka, this is the only illustration i have of the various Ron Dhas. I am surprised that you can not see that only the Surakarta Ron Dha fits clearly into your theory for the AUM.
The Brahmi alphabet looks very different from the Sanskrit used in any of your AUM illustrations:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/brahmi.htm

Pusaka · 15th January 2006, 06:48 PM

Om can be written in many ways, in its most simple form it looks like the number 3. The last image is how Om is written in modern Indonesia (far right)

Pusaka · 15th January 2006, 08:13 PM

If we examine the Indonesian symbol for Om we will find something very interesting. In fig 1 we have the symbol for Om, In fig 2 we have removed one of the characters and now we have the Indonesian symbol for Ong (one holy letter). What is interesting about Ong is that it is composed of the character for 3 but with an Ulu candra (crown) added to the top to signify it is holy i.e. the holy three. This is very similar to the Indonesian Mang (Holy letter). In fig 3 we have removed the Ulu candra and we are left with the character for 3. Three is holy in many religions for example the holy trinity in the Christian religion, in effect the 3 aspects of god. It is interesting that the character for 3 is the bases for the Om (symbol of god). Finally in fig 4 we have put the remaining characters side by side and we have a very interesting pattern when it is related to the markings on the Keris. We find that it fits all the illustrations that nechesh posted.

nechesh · 15th January 2006, 09:37 PM

Interesting. Firstly, the final figure (4) which you claim is all the remaining figures of the Indonesian OM laid side by side does NOT fit all the figures of Ron Dha that i posted, it only fits the Surakarta Ron Dha. Look carefully. Fig. 4 shows 2 waves that face away from each other (back to back) and one wave facing inward on the right with a small peak in the middle. This small peak only exists on the Surakarta example in this sequence.
It seems a bit of a stretch for me to disassemble a symbol and piece it back together in a way that is no longer that symbol and still maintain that it holds the same meaning. In the end, lines are merely that, just lines, and if we try hard enough i am sure we can come up with a number of different letters or symbols that we can reconstruct to resemble the Ron Dha. I am afraid i neeed a little bit more than that to be swayed in your direction. If i remove the foot off an "E" it becomes an "F", if i invert a "W" it becomes an "M", if i turn an "N" on it's side it becomes a "Z". But what symbolic relationship do these letters have with one another? They have completely different meanings and intentions when viewed from different perspectives.
BTW, i believe the language and alphabet you are using in this last post might be Balinese, not Indonesian.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/balinese.htm
The general Indonesian language is Bahasa and is usually written in the Latin alphabet. This is what "unites" all the islands in that nation with a common language. Balinese, of course, has the same Brahmi roots that all these other alphabets we have been discussing do, so we will see similarities in forms, but since it is generally accepted (though new theories could pop up

) that the keris as we are discussing it (w/Ron Dha) originated in Jawa and migrated to Bali it also seems likely that the origins of the Ron Dha also lie in Jawa, so comparisons of the Ron Dha to the Balinese alphabet makes no sense.

15th January 2006, 06:48 PM	#3
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Om can be written in many ways, in its most simple form it looks like the number 3. The last image is how Om is written in modern Indonesia (far right) Attached Images

15th January 2006, 08:13 PM	#4
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	If we examine the Indonesian symbol for Om we will find something very interesting. In fig 1 we have the symbol for Om, In fig 2 we have removed one of the characters and now we have the Indonesian symbol for Ong (one holy letter). What is interesting about Ong is that it is composed of the character for 3 but with an Ulu candra (crown) added to the top to signify it is holy i.e. the holy three. This is very similar to the Indonesian Mang (Holy letter). In fig 3 we have removed the Ulu candra and we are left with the character for 3. Three is holy in many religions for example the holy trinity in the Christian religion, in effect the 3 aspects of god. It is interesting that the character for 3 is the bases for the Om (symbol of god). Finally in fig 4 we have put the remaining characters side by side and we have a very interesting pattern when it is related to the markings on the Keris. We find that it fits all the illustrations that nechesh posted. Attached Images

15th January 2006, 05:29 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Pusaka, this is the only illustration i have of the various Ron Dhas. I am surprised that you can not see that only the Surakarta Ron Dha fits clearly into your theory for the AUM. The Brahmi alphabet looks very different from the Sanskrit used in any of your AUM illustrations: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/brahmi.htm

15th January 2006, 09:37 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Interesting. Firstly, the final figure (4) which you claim is all the remaining figures of the Indonesian OM laid side by side does NOT fit all the figures of Ron Dha that i posted, it only fits the Surakarta Ron Dha. Look carefully. Fig. 4 shows 2 waves that face away from each other (back to back) and one wave facing inward on the right with a small peak in the middle. This small peak only exists on the Surakarta example in this sequence. It seems a bit of a stretch for me to disassemble a symbol and piece it back together in a way that is no longer that symbol and still maintain that it holds the same meaning. In the end, lines are merely that, just lines, and if we try hard enough i am sure we can come up with a number of different letters or symbols that we can reconstruct to resemble the Ron Dha. I am afraid i neeed a little bit more than that to be swayed in your direction. If i remove the foot off an "E" it becomes an "F", if i invert a "W" it becomes an "M", if i turn an "N" on it's side it becomes a "Z". But what symbolic relationship do these letters have with one another? They have completely different meanings and intentions when viewed from different perspectives. BTW, i believe the language and alphabet you are using in this last post might be Balinese, not Indonesian. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/balinese.htm The general Indonesian language is Bahasa and is usually written in the Latin alphabet. This is what "unites" all the islands in that nation with a common language. Balinese, of course, has the same Brahmi roots that all these other alphabets we have been discussing do, so we will see similarities in forms, but since it is generally accepted (though new theories could pop up ) that the keris as we are discussing it (w/Ron Dha) originated in Jawa and migrated to Bali it also seems likely that the origins of the Ron Dha also lie in Jawa, so comparisons of the Ron Dha to the Balinese alphabet makes no sense.