OTTOMAN GUNSTOCK MYSTERY

rickystl · 2nd January 2016, 05:16 PM

Happy New Year everyone.

This is something that has me puzzled for a few years now. And reading through reference material such as Elgood, Tirri, etc. I've never really found an answer. So maybe some Forum members have some opinions?
Here are two typical Ottoman style long guns. The top one is a rifled barrel, and the lower one is a smoothbore. The top gun has a Length of Pull (LOP, as measured from the trigger to the rear of the butt stock) of 12" (30.48cm), which I have found common for these guns, and is probably about right for the stature of an adult male in this Region during the 19th Century.
However, the lower gun has a short LOP of only 9" (23cm). Which is a full 3" (7.62cm) shorter than the norm. Yet it does have a rear sight for aiming.
So my question is: Why the very short butt stock? And I'm sure that some of you gun enthusiests have noticed how some of the Ottoman guns were intentially built with these short butt stocks, yet have more or less full length barrels. If you try to shoulder and aim the gun in the normal matter, wheather from the shoulder pit or the upper arm, it's a very uncomfortable, un-natural postion. And your face would be way to close to the lock when firing. Yet the barrel does have a rear sight. Meaning it was designed to be aimed. So, I can't really understand the purpose of the very short butt stock ??

My only theory so far is that they were designed to fire from the cheek ala Japanese matchlock style (?)
Would appreciate hearing other opinions. And thaks for looking.
Rick.

Kubur · 2nd January 2016, 07:23 PM

Hi Rick,

Happy new year to you and all the members.

I think your first proposal is a good one.
I have three other proposals.
First, the butt was protected by something like on the photo attached.
Giving you more confort and distance from the lock.
Second, maybe the guns were used on a support such as a low wall or parapet, as we call some of them ramparts guns.
Last, the shooters were lying on the ground. I noticed that these guns are really heavy with really huge and uncomfortable butts, maybe to stay on the ground and giving a good stability...
It's just few proposals...

Best wishes,
Kubur

grendolino · 2nd January 2016, 07:46 PM

Hello to my gun guru! It is nice to post my opinion to you and for such a topic.
Many oriental long guns have their butts made from layers (see moukhala, jezails, tufeks, caucasians). Some references mention - indeed for adjusting for the gunner.
You have chosen and post very nice example for clarification my point of view.
In my opinion (so as medics say - evidence grade zero) the bottom tufek lacks its rear part. When you look at those guns they have always some decoration in the form of lines perpendicular to long axis, somewhere between a half or 1/3 of the lenght of butt. After that came the final part often made from different material or in different manner (burr wood, ivory, wood cut in other direction then the rest of the stock).
The bottom gun of yours has its decoration on till its very end.
So, when you ad some additional part to its butt you probably get the sufficient length.

estcrh · 3rd January 2016, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grendolino

Hello to my gun guru! It is nice to post my opinion to you and for such a topic.
Many oriental long guns have their butts made from layers (see moukhala, jezails, tufeks, caucasians). Some references mention - indeed for adjusting for the gunner.
You have chosen and post very nice example for clarification my point of view.
In my opinion (so as medics say - evidence grade zero) the bottom tufek lacks its rear part. When you look at those guns they have always some decoration in the form of lines perpendicular to long axis, somewhere between a half or 1/3 of the lenght of butt. After that came the final part often made from different material or in different manner (burr wood, ivory, wood cut in other direction then the rest of the stock).
The bottom gun of yours has its decoration on till its very end.
So, when you ad some additional part to its butt you probably get the sufficient length.

Grendolino, maybe Rick can tell us if his gun with the short stock has a plate covering the butt, or if it is open and possibly as you suggest missing the end of the stock.

rickystl · 3rd January 2016, 01:39 PM

Gentlemen: Thank you all for your responses. Much appreciated.

Hi Kubur: Happy New Year to you also ! And to others here.
Some interesting suggestions you offer here. Hmmm. The leather recoil pad would make sense. But I've never really seen one of these used on an Ottoman style gun, like you do on the Arab/Omani style guns. The wall/rampart idea is possible. But these are usually, as you mention, the very heavy barrel wall guns with the wide/thick stocks.

Hi Grendolino: Yes, I know exactly what you are saying with the rear of the butt stocks often being made in sections, and decorated as you mentiond. But in this case (and others that I have handled and seen in reference material) has a butt plate nailed to the stock. And the patina of the brass matches the rest of the brass decoration exactly. So this short stock gun was made this way.

Hi Estcrh: See pic below of the short stock gun with the brass butt plate.
Also the butt of the first gun with the full length butt stock with no evidence there ever was a butt plate. Which would have possibly kept the crack in the stock from forming.

Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 3rd January 2016, 05:27 PM

Rick,

I am sure these were to be used as a cheek -stock.
supported between the arms and not against the shoulder.
Many Senegalese stocks, like the Japanese, are short as well.
(Also the European arms many were copied from were also cheek -stocked)

As some of these better decorated arms are likely for sporting purposes, I don't think the rampart idea fits particularly well, but I could be wrong.

How does the piece in question align when held in this manner? (against cheek)

Richard.

rickystl · 3rd January 2016, 09:00 PM

Hi Richard.

Thanks for your response. I also thought about how some of the early European wheellock rifles, for sporting purposes, were also cheek-stocked.
I too, at this point, am convinced that these short butt stocks on the Ottoman guns were designed to be shot from the cheek. It seems like the most logical conclusion.
If you bring the short stock up to the cheek and aim the front and rear sights, it aligns perfectly. Since both of these guns are live shooters, I can attest that the cheek stock gun is actually a bit faster to aim and fire than the shoulder-stocked gun.
So it may have been that it was a simple matter of shooter's preference in building the gun stocks.
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 4th January 2016, 04:12 PM

Rick,

Thanks for the answer to how they align.
Cheek -stocked target arms have been made since the matchlock, and in fact they Had to be fired in this manner to be eligible for certain matches.

Was the original bore rifled?

rickystl · 9th January 2016, 06:01 PM

Hi Richard.

The cheek stock gun was originally a smooth bore, and now has a new smooth bore liner. The shoulder stock gun was originally rifled, and now has a new rifled liner.
The cheek stock gun is a bit of an ugly duckling LOL It has a couple of period repairs from field use. Plus, while the barrel is an original, it was not original to this gun. The diameter is a bit large for the fore stock. That's why the barrel bands look a bit tall.
The shoulder stock gun was originally made with a slightly larger lock, and changed to a bit smaller lock - back in the period. The evidence is there if you remove the lock and view the mortice. But it was done very professionally back in the day.
So I thought these were good candadites to make into shooters.

Thanks again for everyones input.

Rick.

2nd January 2016, 05:16 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	OTTOMAN GUNSTOCK MYSTERY Happy New Year everyone. This is something that has me puzzled for a few years now. And reading through reference material such as Elgood, Tirri, etc. I've never really found an answer. So maybe some Forum members have some opinions? Here are two typical Ottoman style long guns. The top one is a rifled barrel, and the lower one is a smoothbore. The top gun has a Length of Pull (LOP, as measured from the trigger to the rear of the butt stock) of 12" (30.48cm), which I have found common for these guns, and is probably about right for the stature of an adult male in this Region during the 19th Century. However, the lower gun has a short LOP of only 9" (23cm). Which is a full 3" (7.62cm) shorter than the norm. Yet it does have a rear sight for aiming. So my question is: Why the very short butt stock? And I'm sure that some of you gun enthusiests have noticed how some of the Ottoman guns were intentially built with these short butt stocks, yet have more or less full length barrels. If you try to shoulder and aim the gun in the normal matter, wheather from the shoulder pit or the upper arm, it's a very uncomfortable, un-natural postion. And your face would be way to close to the lock when firing. Yet the barrel does have a rear sight. Meaning it was designed to be aimed. So, I can't really understand the purpose of the very short butt stock ?? My only theory so far is that they were designed to fire from the cheek ala Japanese matchlock style (?) Would appreciate hearing other opinions. And thaks for looking. Rick. Attached Images

2nd January 2016, 07:23 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Rick, Happy new year to you and all the members. I think your first proposal is a good one. I have three other proposals. First, the butt was protected by something like on the photo attached. Giving you more confort and distance from the lock. Second, maybe the guns were used on a support such as a low wall or parapet, as we call some of them ramparts guns. Last, the shooters were lying on the ground. I noticed that these guns are really heavy with really huge and uncomfortable butts, maybe to stay on the ground and giving a good stability... It's just few proposals... Best wishes, Kubur Attached Images

3rd January 2016, 01:39 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Gentlemen: Thank you all for your responses. Much appreciated. Hi Kubur: Happy New Year to you also ! And to others here. Some interesting suggestions you offer here. Hmmm. The leather recoil pad would make sense. But I've never really seen one of these used on an Ottoman style gun, like you do on the Arab/Omani style guns. The wall/rampart idea is possible. But these are usually, as you mention, the very heavy barrel wall guns with the wide/thick stocks. Hi Grendolino: Yes, I know exactly what you are saying with the rear of the butt stocks often being made in sections, and decorated as you mentiond. But in this case (and others that I have handled and seen in reference material) has a butt plate nailed to the stock. And the patina of the brass matches the rest of the brass decoration exactly. So this short stock gun was made this way. Hi Estcrh: See pic below of the short stock gun with the brass butt plate. Also the butt of the first gun with the full length butt stock with no evidence there ever was a butt plate. Which would have possibly kept the crack in the stock from forming. Rick. Attached Images

3rd January 2016, 09:00 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Richard. Thanks for your response. I also thought about how some of the early European wheellock rifles, for sporting purposes, were also cheek-stocked. I too, at this point, am convinced that these short butt stocks on the Ottoman guns were designed to be shot from the cheek. It seems like the most logical conclusion. If you bring the short stock up to the cheek and aim the front and rear sights, it aligns perfectly. Since both of these guns are live shooters, I can attest that the cheek stock gun is actually a bit faster to aim and fire than the shoulder-stocked gun. So it may have been that it was a simple matter of shooter's preference in building the gun stocks. Rick. Attached Images

2nd January 2016, 07:46 PM	#3
grendolino Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 38	Hello to my gun guru! It is nice to post my opinion to you and for such a topic. Many oriental long guns have their butts made from layers (see moukhala, jezails, tufeks, caucasians). Some references mention - indeed for adjusting for the gunner. You have chosen and post very nice example for clarification my point of view. In my opinion (so as medics say - evidence grade zero) the bottom tufek lacks its rear part. When you look at those guns they have always some decoration in the form of lines perpendicular to long axis, somewhere between a half or 1/3 of the lenght of butt. After that came the final part often made from different material or in different manner (burr wood, ivory, wood cut in other direction then the rest of the stock). The bottom gun of yours has its decoration on till its very end. So, when you ad some additional part to its butt you probably get the sufficient length.

3rd January 2016, 05:27 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, I am sure these were to be used as a cheek -stock. supported between the arms and not against the shoulder. Many Senegalese stocks, like the Japanese, are short as well. (Also the European arms many were copied from were also cheek -stocked) As some of these better decorated arms are likely for sporting purposes, I don't think the rampart idea fits particularly well, but I could be wrong. How does the piece in question align when held in this manner? (against cheek) Richard.

4th January 2016, 04:12 PM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, Thanks for the answer to how they align. Cheek -stocked target arms have been made since the matchlock, and in fact they Had to be fired in this manner to be eligible for certain matches. Was the original bore rifled?

9th January 2016, 06:01 PM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Richard. The cheek stock gun was originally a smooth bore, and now has a new smooth bore liner. The shoulder stock gun was originally rifled, and now has a new rifled liner. The cheek stock gun is a bit of an ugly duckling LOL It has a couple of period repairs from field use. Plus, while the barrel is an original, it was not original to this gun. The diameter is a bit large for the fore stock. That's why the barrel bands look a bit tall. The shoulder stock gun was originally made with a slightly larger lock, and changed to a bit smaller lock - back in the period. The evidence is there if you remove the lock and view the mortice. But it was done very professionally back in the day. So I thought these were good candadites to make into shooters. Thanks again for everyones input. Rick.