The value of the additional visual sources for the study of historical weapons.

Mercenary · 2nd January 2016, 10:52 PM

I am sorry. The item of discussed coin:

ariel · 2nd January 2016, 11:58 PM

This discussion is complicated by the fact that the references chosen by Mahratt bear little connection with the images posted by him. At the very least, two references have no corresponding images.
Also, what exactly do you mean by "fighting rake" allegedly shown on one of the images? Can you pinpoint please?

And, BTW, can you provide correct reference to the source of the very last coin you present and which was also cited by Mercenary? I will be much obliged.

Mercenary · 3rd January 2016, 11:02 AM

Hi Ariel

Many thanks that you joined to us. It is very interesting question about origin of saber. The solution of this question can change the course of known world history.

I am sorry, was it your article: Ariel Barkan, "The Question of Emergence of Saber as Islamic Weapon" in Russian-Ukranian journal? If it so be so kind to help us to understand the article. This is a very serious theme, wich involved leading scientists, archaeologists and there were published a lot of articles. Could you post image of your coin and the whole attribution?

For information the Turkic saber from Tien-Shan:
Besh-Tash-Koroo-II,barrow №3. In the burial of a man with a horse an iron saber lying on the left side of the deceased was found. Its dimensions are: blade length 73 cm, maximum width 4.5 cm, maximum thickness of 1.2 cm, the deflection of the back 1.8 cm; handle length 16 cm, maximum width of 3.2 cm. Blade is one and half edged. The lower part of the blade, at a distance of 8.5 cm from the tip, is split in two egdes. In the cross section of the single-edge blade is in triangular in outline, and its two-edge portion is lenticular. The hilt of the sword is straight and even has a wooden lining leather. The blade was placed in a wooden scabbard with steel tip and clip on mouth and leather loop for hanging to the belt (Fig. 3, 1). The collection of weapons from the barrow №3, along with the sword, included a composite bow and quiver of arrows. The inventory of the tomb dates back to the 2nd half VII – 1st half VIII century A.D.

Mercenary · 3rd January 2016, 01:41 PM

That is right, it was your article for sure in a serious journal:

Quote:

Thanks for all your input!
...I recently published a paper on the origin of islamic saber in a Ukrainian journal published by a crazy guy who opened his private collection to the public and managed to corral a bunch of the top-class academicians to the Editorial Board of a journal he funded by himself:-) ... To have a paper in the same issue with Gorelik and Khudyakov is not something that happens every day:-)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...lik#post177887

Could you to explain why you think that it was saber and was not a defect of coinage?

ariel · 4th January 2016, 12:13 AM

Mercenary:
As you are well aware, what was published in the Ukrainian journal was a very preliminary draft. Due to the sudden death of the Editor and Publisher, this draft was published by his heirs without my knowledge, unedited and unfinished.

I am in а process of reworking the materials and adding new information. When I am satisfied with the quality of the paper, I shall submit it to a peer-reviewed journal dealing with the history of weapons.

As soon as it is published, I shall be more than happy to provide you with a reference. If the Journal's copyright policy permits it, I shall be glad to upload the PDF here.

Mercenary · 4th January 2016, 08:31 AM

Quote:

As you are well aware, what was published in the Ukrainian journal was a very preliminary draft. Due to the sudden death of the Editor and Publisher, this draft was published by his heirs without my knowledge, unedited and unfinished.

It was not so. I knew the man whom you call "crazy guy" - V.G.Shleifer very well and knew how the last issue of the journal was preparing. One of my article was supposed to be there too.

Quote:

I am in а process of reworking the materials and adding new information. When I am satisfied with the quality of the paper, I shall submit it to a peer-reviewed journal dealing with the history of weapons.

Be carefull. Do not send to Editorial Board the draft of article again.

Quote:

As soon as it is published, I shall be more than happy to provide you with a reference. If the Journal's copyright policy permits it, I shall be glad to upload the PDF here

I'm not good in other regions and times except India in 14-19th century, but what are the historical sources, the scientific basis and the logic I know a little.

Ian · 6th January 2016, 01:06 AM

Gents:

This is an interesting thread but I must admit that, while the premise that coins may be a useful source of information about when a type of weapon was used is intriguing, the examples shown here are unconvincing for the most part. Except for the image on the gold coin, I'm struggling to see much else that would be likely called a sword. And I sense that others are also having a problem identifying weapons in many of the images. There appears to be some distortion of the coins over time, which also makes interpretation difficult.

As far as frescos are concerned, there are always issues of when the drawings were made and how such artwork might relate to other items found nearby. So, the discovery of articles dating to 10-30 C.E. in the vicinity of the fresco that is shown does not mean that the fresco dates from the same period--it may have been added much later.

Nevertheless, interesting thoughts and conjecture. Ariel, I look forward to seeing your article when it is finished.

Ian.

mahratt · 4th January 2016, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

This discussion is complicated by the fact that the references chosen by Mahratt bear little connection with the images posted by him. At the very least, two references have no corresponding images.
Also, what exactly do you mean by "fighting rake" allegedly shown on one of the images? Can you pinpoint please?

And, BTW, can you provide correct reference to the source of the very last coin you present and which was also cited by Mercenary? I will be much obliged.

All of the coins that I showed are " an Umayyad coin of the late 7 th century showing Caliph Al-Malik (or the very Muhammad) armed with...". The question is why on the some images we can see swords, clubs, even " double-barreled shotgun " but author for his article choosed only "saber"?

Mercenary · 4th January 2016, 08:05 AM

You know there is a fresco in Panticapaeum burial vault of Anfestery. It was built in 10-30 AD and dated by the glass vessels, the font of the labels and so. But none of the serious researchers will not write about "sabre" in 10-30 AD. Why do you think?

2nd January 2016, 10:52 PM	#1
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	I am sorry. The item of discussed coin: Attached Images

2nd January 2016, 11:58 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This discussion is complicated by the fact that the references chosen by Mahratt bear little connection with the images posted by him. At the very least, two references have no corresponding images. Also, what exactly do you mean by "fighting rake" allegedly shown on one of the images? Can you pinpoint please? And, BTW, can you provide correct reference to the source of the very last coin you present and which was also cited by Mercenary? I will be much obliged. Last edited by ariel; 3rd January 2016 at 12:46 AM.

3rd January 2016, 11:02 AM	#3
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Hi Ariel Many thanks that you joined to us. It is very interesting question about origin of saber. The solution of this question can change the course of known world history. I am sorry, was it your article: Ariel Barkan, "The Question of Emergence of Saber as Islamic Weapon" in Russian-Ukranian journal? If it so be so kind to help us to understand the article. This is a very serious theme, wich involved leading scientists, archaeologists and there were published a lot of articles. Could you post image of your coin and the whole attribution? For information the Turkic saber from Tien-Shan: Besh-Tash-Koroo-II,barrow №3. In the burial of a man with a horse an iron saber lying on the left side of the deceased was found. Its dimensions are: blade length 73 cm, maximum width 4.5 cm, maximum thickness of 1.2 cm, the deflection of the back 1.8 cm; handle length 16 cm, maximum width of 3.2 cm. Blade is one and half edged. The lower part of the blade, at a distance of 8.5 cm from the tip, is split in two egdes. In the cross section of the single-edge blade is in triangular in outline, and its two-edge portion is lenticular. The hilt of the sword is straight and even has a wooden lining leather. The blade was placed in a wooden scabbard with steel tip and clip on mouth and leather loop for hanging to the belt (Fig. 3, 1). The collection of weapons from the barrow №3, along with the sword, included a composite bow and quiver of arrows. The inventory of the tomb dates back to the 2nd half VII – 1st half VIII century A.D. Attached Images

4th January 2016, 12:13 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Mercenary: As you are well aware, what was published in the Ukrainian journal was a very preliminary draft. Due to the sudden death of the Editor and Publisher, this draft was published by his heirs without my knowledge, unedited and unfinished. I am in а process of reworking the materials and adding new information. When I am satisfied with the quality of the paper, I shall submit it to a peer-reviewed journal dealing with the history of weapons. As soon as it is published, I shall be more than happy to provide you with a reference. If the Journal's copyright policy permits it, I shall be glad to upload the PDF here. Last edited by ariel; 4th January 2016 at 03:01 AM.

4th January 2016, 08:05 AM	#9
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	You know there is a fresco in Panticapaeum burial vault of Anfestery. It was built in 10-30 AD and dated by the glass vessels, the font of the labels and so. But none of the serious researchers will not write about "sabre" in 10-30 AD. Why do you think? Attached Images

6th January 2016, 01:06 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Gents: This is an interesting thread but I must admit that, while the premise that coins may be a useful source of information about when a type of weapon was used is intriguing, the examples shown here are unconvincing for the most part. Except for the image on the gold coin, I'm struggling to see much else that would be likely called a sword. And I sense that others are also having a problem identifying weapons in many of the images. There appears to be some distortion of the coins over time, which also makes interpretation difficult. As far as frescos are concerned, there are always issues of when the drawings were made and how such artwork might relate to other items found nearby. So, the discovery of articles dating to 10-30 C.E. in the vicinity of the fresco that is shown does not mean that the fresco dates from the same period--it may have been added much later. Nevertheless, interesting thoughts and conjecture. Ariel, I look forward to seeing your article when it is finished. Ian.