The value of the additional visual sources for the study of historical weapons.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

These very old coins are interesting, but they are not struck very well, so it can be hard to see what is on them.
The later coind are more precise, so it is easier to see which weapon is shown.

You're absolutely right! Of course, in the later coins weapon shown better!
So you agree that we can not say for sure what is depicted in these very old coins?

[VANDOO]

THE GOLD COIN LOOKS LIKE A SWORD TO ME BUT SOME OF THE ONES ABOVE IT LOOKS LIKE A LARGE CLUB TO ME. OF COURSE I AM INTO CLUBS SO THAT COMES AS NO SURPRISE. HERCULES MAIN WEAPON WAS A CLUB AND HE WORE A LIONS SKIN SO THEY WERE OFTEN REPRESENTED IN COUNTRIES WHERE HIS LEGEND WAS POPULAR. PERHAPS THERE ARE SOME GREEK COINS SHOWING HERCULES.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE GOLD COIN LOOKS LIKE A SWORD TO ME BUT SOME OF THE ONES ABOVE IT LOOKS LIKE A LARGE CLUB TO ME. OF COURSE I AM INTO CLUBS SO THAT COMES AS NO SURPRISE. HERCULES MAIN WEAPON WAS A CLUB AND HE WORE A LIONS SKIN SO THEY WERE OFTEN REPRESENTED IN COUNTRIES WHERE HIS LEGEND WAS POPULAR. PERHAPS THERE ARE SOME GREEK COINS SHOWING HERCULES.

On these coins are images of Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (the 5th Umayyad caliph) or Muhammad himself. There are no any clubs ))

[Jens Nordlunde]

No I cant say for sure, but what does that prove?

[ALEX]

These images, like many other early ones are stylized, so the only prove is that these early rulers had swords, which were also always symbols of power and authority.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by mahratt

You're absolutely right! Of course, in the later coins weapon shown better!
So you agree that we can not say for sure what is depicted in these very old coins?

First of all it is necessary to explan that on another forum we discussed about development of a sabre but to no avail ((
As we found out there are three versions of sabre development:
1. Turkic origin. In the period of the second Eastern Turkic (682-744 years) khaganate. The first samples had one and half edged blade and a straight handle without the cross-section.
2. On Iran territory together with turkic slave-warriors in 8-9th century.
3.Then a saber was adopted by Arabs.

But there was discussed an article too in which states that Arabs used a sabre in 7th century before Turkic people and as the only evidence was shown one of coins posted above:

"...this coin series dates to the very beginning of the rule of Al-Malik (685-705). On the obverse has a figure with no face, dressed in a burnous, long robe and with a sword at the left side. It is the shape of this sword that is of interest: the sword is curved, the blade is up-turned (kind of “shashka-like” suspension), the handle top being inclined towards the blade and a trace of yelman seen in its farthest third. These three features help to distinctly characterize this weapon as a saber".
"Finally, an Umayyad coin of the late 7 th century showing Caliph Al-Malik (or the very Muhammad) armed with a typical saber is presented here. Its dating by far precedes the emergence of sabers in the Iranian region of the Abbasid Caliphate, which excludes the possibility of primary coming of saber through Iran in the Islamic world. This coin is the earliest dated and documented image of saber known in the literature on weapon studies"

If on the coin we have a saber (but it is very strange to see saber in the scabbard with "up-turned suspension" and simultaneously "elman"), then the version of Arab origin of a saber in 7th century to have a right to exist.

[Mercenary]

I am sorry. The item of discussed coin:

[ariel]

This discussion is complicated by the fact that the references chosen by Mahratt bear little connection with the images posted by him. At the very least, two references have no corresponding images.
Also, what exactly do you mean by "fighting rake" allegedly shown on one of the images? Can you pinpoint please?

And, BTW, can you provide correct reference to the source of the very last coin you present and which was also cited by Mercenary? I will be much obliged.

[Mercenary]

Hi Ariel

Many thanks that you joined to us. It is very interesting question about origin of saber. The solution of this question can change the course of known world history.

I am sorry, was it your article: Ariel Barkan, "The Question of Emergence of Saber as Islamic Weapon" in Russian-Ukranian journal? If it so be so kind to help us to understand the article. This is a very serious theme, wich involved leading scientists, archaeologists and there were published a lot of articles. Could you post image of your coin and the whole attribution?

For information the Turkic saber from Tien-Shan:
Besh-Tash-Koroo-II,barrow №3. In the burial of a man with a horse an iron saber lying on the left side of the deceased was found. Its dimensions are: blade length 73 cm, maximum width 4.5 cm, maximum thickness of 1.2 cm, the deflection of the back 1.8 cm; handle length 16 cm, maximum width of 3.2 cm. Blade is one and half edged. The lower part of the blade, at a distance of 8.5 cm from the tip, is split in two egdes. In the cross section of the single-edge blade is in triangular in outline, and its two-edge portion is lenticular. The hilt of the sword is straight and even has a wooden lining leather. The blade was placed in a wooden scabbard with steel tip and clip on mouth and leather loop for hanging to the belt (Fig. 3, 1). The collection of weapons from the barrow №3, along with the sword, included a composite bow and quiver of arrows. The inventory of the tomb dates back to the 2nd half VII – 1st half VIII century A.D.

[Mercenary]

That is right, it was your article for sure in a serious journal:

Thanks for all your input!
...I recently published a paper on the origin of islamic saber in a Ukrainian journal published by a crazy guy who opened his private collection to the public and managed to corral a bunch of the top-class academicians to the Editorial Board of a journal he funded by himself:-) ... To have a paper in the same issue with Gorelik and Khudyakov is not something that happens every day:-)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...lik#post177887

Could you to explain why you think that it was saber and was not a defect of coinage?

[ariel]

Mercenary:
As you are well aware, what was published in the Ukrainian journal was a very preliminary draft. Due to the sudden death of the Editor and Publisher, this draft was published by his heirs without my knowledge, unedited and unfinished.

I am in а process of reworking the materials and adding new information. When I am satisfied with the quality of the paper, I shall submit it to a peer-reviewed journal dealing with the history of weapons.

As soon as it is published, I shall be more than happy to provide you with a reference. If the Journal's copyright policy permits it, I shall be glad to upload the PDF here.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

This discussion is complicated by the fact that the references chosen by Mahratt bear little connection with the images posted by him. At the very least, two references have no corresponding images.
Also, what exactly do you mean by "fighting rake" allegedly shown on one of the images? Can you pinpoint please?

And, BTW, can you provide correct reference to the source of the very last coin you present and which was also cited by Mercenary? I will be much obliged.

All of the coins that I showed are " an Umayyad coin of the late 7 th century showing Caliph Al-Malik (or the very Muhammad) armed with...". The question is why on the some images we can see swords, clubs, even " double-barreled shotgun " but author for his article choosed only "saber"?

[Mercenary]

You know there is a fresco in Panticapaeum burial vault of Anfestery. It was built in 10-30 AD and dated by the glass vessels, the font of the labels and so. But none of the serious researchers will not write about "sabre" in 10-30 AD. Why do you think?