A Batangas Brass Bladed Dagger

[Robert]

Here are a few auction photos (i will post better ones after it arrives) of another brass bladed Philippine dagger I just picked up. Rick posted an almost identical one some time ago that Is located here; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=brass+blade
As I do not know any of the measurements of Rick's example and I am hoping that he will see this and post them here. My example is 17 inches overall with a 12 inch blade and a 5 inch water buffalo horn hilt. I believe both Rick's example and mine come from the Batangas area and though they can easily be used to defend oneself with (like the other brass bladed daggers I have posted) I believe these to be mostly talismanic or ceremonial in purpose. Comments or information on either of these daggers would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Hello Robert,

great catch! It was on my watch list but I was irritated by the leather scabbard which coming with the dagger, now I am sure that the scabbard isn't worked for this piece, don't coming from Luzon and is much later.
I would place this very nice dagger around 1900, maybe earlier. I am curious to see better pictures after you have received it.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Rick]

Robert,
15 3/8" overall.
Blade 1 1/2 " wide at base; eleven waves counted Jawa style, and 10 1/2" long.

Jealous, you have more brass dots in the hilt than I do.

[Ian]

Hi Robert:

From the shape of the hilt I was thinking more of northern Luzon. Do you have a good provenance for Batangas?

Ian.

[Robert]

Detlef, Thank you for tour thoughts on this piece. I am very happy that seeing as you were also watching it as well that the seller accepted my offer, lowered the price and let me snag it on a Buy It Now without someone else grabbing it up first. I think that the mismatched scabbard threw others off as well.

Rick, Thank you for posting the measurements of your dagger here for comparison. Mine might have more dots, but yours has dots and those neat plates on the sides. I just noticed that yours and the one in the photos posted below both have the dots and plates on the hilt. Now I feel cheated.

Ian, What makes me think that these pieces are from Batangas are the hilts themselves, some of the discussions we have had on them here on the forum as well as ones that I have had with Migueldiaz AKA Lorenz from Filhistory. Here are a couple of photos of a sword with a very similar hilt style. I have another that is marked in a similar fashion somewhere and have been trying to locate it to post as well, but no luck so far.

Best,
Robert

[Ian]

Robert:

Thank you for the additional pics which show Taal and Bats on the hilt of a most unusual looking sword.I interpret TAAL to mean Lake Taal and BATS to mean Batangas. Lake Taal is a popular tourist vista in Batangas, and a most picturesque spot to visit--young couples find it a romantic place and not too far from Manila for a day trip. There are many legends about this place.

Lake Taal is a freshwater lake in an old volcanic caldera. Within the lake is a second order volcano that also has a lake, and within that lake is another small, third order volcano with a third order lake. Since it references a somewhat "magical" spot, I wonder if the most recent, fanciful sword you posted may have been made more for display than for use.

Ian.

[Robert]

Hello Ian, The strange kris sword was sold on epray a year or two ago. As for its original use I could only guess. It does not look all that fanciful to me after looking at some of the other odd kris that have adorned these pages over the years. I do wonder though if the present guard is original to it or not as it looks a little out of place with the rest of the sword. I would love to someday be able to visit the Philippines and visit that area. Here are a couple of photos of Lake Taal gleaned form the internet.

Best,
Robert

[mdp10003]

Hi! I don't think it is Lake Taal - it refers to the town of Taal, Batangas. It is a small town with the biggest Basilica in Asia, and was also home to several revolutionary families, including the Apacible and Agoncillo and Diokno families. So who knows, that dagger may have revolutionary roots!

[Sajen]

Here some stuff to read regarding Taal: http://www.philippine-islands.ph/en/...ilippines.html

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

I wonder if the most recent, fanciful sword you posted may have been made more for display than for use.

Hello Ian,

sorry, but I think that this heavy kris sword was meant for real use and I would guess that it is from the late 19th century or early 20th century. When I remember correct was the seller of the same opinion. The nicks in the edges shows that it was used IMVHO. This sword, when it is the same one, wasn't from ebay but was sold from a well known site in the States. I still keep the original pictures, maybe they are more meaningful.
Just get the information that the sword was indeed listed at ebay before it was sold from the mentioned site.

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Detlef, Thank you very much for posting the photos of the odd kris and I am in total agreement with you on the age of the kris sword.
The brass dagger has arrived and I have had a chance to clean the dirt and filth from the hilt, but have not yet had time to remove the varnish from the blade so the color of the brass is a little off in the below photos.

Total length 17-1/8 inches
Blade length 12-1.8 inches
Blade width 1-3/4 inches

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Hello Robert,

great addition to your collection of brass and copper blade Luzon daggers. Fine that it is in such a good condition.
Maybe when you find the time can show them all together in one picture.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Hello Detlef,
Thank you for your kind words on this as well as the other daggers in my collection. I will try to find time in the next few days (if the wife will just let me rest long enough from rearranging the furniture and putting up the Holiday decorations) to get a group photo of my small collection of Luzon copper and brass bladed daggers.

Best,
Robert

[Robert]

Here is a photo of my small brass and copper Luzon dagger collection. I have one more copper dagger, but at this time it is packed away due to the Holiday rearrangement and decoration on the home. I just happened to know exactly where these were located.

[Robert]

This beautiful little copper bladed dagger was added to my collection by fellow forum member and good friend Ferguson AKA "Tito Gunong". Now that I have finally had a chance to do a little restoration work (replacing the missing toe piece) I thought I would post a few photos of it hopefully for the enjoyment of all. One of the strangest details of this piece is that the scabbard is made from one "solid" piece of wood. How this was done without cutting or splitting the wood into two sections to form the pocket that blade fits into is beyond me. I do not think that it could have been burnt in (a common practice for fitting hilts) as that would leave traces charring or darkening in the wood. Any suggestions on how this might have been accomplished or other comments on this piece would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
Robert

[Battara]

Nice blade. I am aware that copper blades were talismanic (and perhaps brass/bronze as well?).

[Robert]

I am aware that copper blades were talismanic (and perhaps brass/bronze as well?).

I have heard that copper, brass and bronze blades were all considered to be talismanic. One other thing I was also told is that it was believed that when used to stab someone the copper blades were supposed to have the power to leave a wound that would not heal and would eventually lead to the death of the victim. I have not heard if the blades made of brass/bronze are supposed to have the same power or not.

[Sajen]

Hello Robert,

another great addition to your ever growing collection of brass and copper bladed knives and daggers. And like usual a very good restauration, top work.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Detlef, Thank you for your kind comments on the restoration work. I try to be as accurate as possible when having to make replacement parts (or when making repairs to original parts) using the same materials and trying to match the finish as closely as possible to that of the item they are to be placed on. I just wish that there was more information available on what the original intended use of these brass and copper bladed knives and daggers was. As Jose has suggested they had a talismanic purpose to help ward off evil as well as being an effective weapon against people with supernatural powers. It has also been suggested that they are ceremonial in nature, but not what capacity they served. There is also the belief that wounds inflicted by their use will not readily heal and will help lead to the subsequent death of the victim. I have also heard that brass and copper bladed knives were used to cut open bags of gunpowder because they will not create sparks, something definitely not wanted while working with or around explosives. Unfortunately because of the way they are built most of the brass/copper bladed daggers and knives that I have seen would not be suitable for this purpose. A more robust blade than most of these possess would be needed for such a task. I have just won a copper bladed knife that I believe was actually made for this purpose and will post photos of it here just as soon as it arrives. I would greatly appreciate any other information or suggestion that anyone has on the use of these unique items.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Hello Robert,

this is exactly what I meant. Maybe others don't noticed the well worked and exact solvering of the brass part, exactly like I've seen it by old/antique examples, the same with the well chosen copper end plate, again like I've seen it before originally. At last the perfect patina match of the brass with the original fittings, very good.

Regarding brass and copper bladed daggers/knives I also only know the possible reasons you have numerated already. But what I have seen until now is that all this daggers and knives would do the same job as a steel bladed counterpart IMVHO. So maybe you can find them just because iron wasn't at hand.

But your incoming example could be indeed a powderman's knife. Courious to see your pictures.

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Detlef, Again I thank you for your very kind words on my work. Here are a few photos of what I believe to be a powder-mans knife that I had just won. Other than turning the guard to its correct position (as the hilt was loose from the blade when it arrived) I have only cleaned and oiled the scabbard and wooden section of the hilt. Later I will replace the small brass band now missing from the tip of the scabbard and repair the break in the guard where the tang passes through before reattaching the hilt in a more permanent way. The total length of the knife is 12-3/4 inches, the blade has a single beveled cutting edge, is 8-1/2 inches in length, 1-1/8 inches wide at the hilt and is 3/8 inch thick. All in all a very heavily built piece. This knife would serve well for cutting open powder bags as well as cutting fuse without the problem of producing sparks. I believe that this knife deserves its own thread so I will start a new one hopefully to get more response from our members.

[David R]

Re. the "one piece scabbard" if the wood is split rather than cut/sawn lengthways before working the cavity, then the join would be virtually invisible! Could this be the case here?

[Robert]

Anything is possible David, but I have worked with wood for years and even when split in the manner you suggest there are still tells, usually shown in the end grain of the wood. Even though I can find absolutely no evidence of this method being used anywhere on this scabbard, if done with great care to detail what you suggest could still explain how this was accomplished.

Best,
Robert

P.S.
I have just taken a second look at the scabbard and because of the way the grain runs (it looks to be quarter sawn) splitting it in the manner you described before working the blade recess would be all but impossible to accomplish.