OTTOMAN....What do we mean?

[rickystl]

Hi Stu.
Well. Now look what you've done. You've opened up a can of worms. And Indo-Persian would probably be a two cans of worms. LOL!!
Seriously, good question. And thanks to all that posted. The responses above to your original question are all much better than I can produce. Great Thread and interesting reading.
Rick.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu.
Well. Now look what you've done. You've opened up a can of worms. And Indo-Persian would probably be a two cans of worms. LOL!!
Seriously, good question. And thanks to all that posted. The responses above to your original question are all much better than I can produce. Great Thread and interesting reading.
Rick.

Thanks Rick

[ariel]

The confusion about this term is not unique.
After all, Ottoman implies Turkish Royal dynasty. It was in control for ~ 700 years and ruled over tribes of different ethnic and geographical origins.

In this sense it is not much different from our usage of Qajar swords, Ming vases or Tzarist Russian Shashkas. All objects from these groups could have been made in different times and different localities. Napoleonic swords are even more ambiguous: we imply era, but lump together French, German and British swords. Luckily, for them we have readable inscriptions and well-known patterns; those are as a rule unavailable on Ottoman weapons.

To sum up, we use the term "Ottoman" not because it is the best one, but simply because there is no more precise attribution.

[Sancar]

It is not that confusing actually. Do you have any confusion about using the term "Roman"? Then you shouldn't have any confusion about using the term "Ottoman".

That is the short answer. But if you want the long one... Well it is quite long. Long enough to fill a library actually. There are tons and tons of books written in every language in the world that explains in detail what exactly Ottoman culture and art is, with its own origins, disciplines, styles, evolution and whatnot. Architecture is a part of it, as well as music, literature and plastic arts, so is the arms and armour. I advice anyone interested to read one.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Sancar

It is not that confusing actually. Do you have any confusion about using the term "Roman"? Then you shouldn't have any confusion about using the term "Ottoman".

That is the short answer. But if you want the long one... Well it is quite long. Long enough to fill a library actually. There are tons and tons of books written in every language in the world that explains in detail what exactly Ottoman culture and art is, with its own origins, disciplines, styles, evolution and whatnot. Architecture is a part of it, as well as music, literature and plastic arts, so is the arms and armour. I advice anyone interested to read one.

I totally agree my Ottoman friend

Kubur

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I totally agree my Ottoman friend

Kubur

I do not disagree with what is written here as we all have our own views, but the point I have tried to make appears to have been missed, judging by the replies above.
What I have tried to point out is that when a question is asked as to ORIGIN of a piece, what is actually being asked is "Where does this piece COME FROM?" It may be Ottoman, and if it is, what particular country within what was the Ottoman Empire does it come from? I am not looking for a particular town as has been highlighted by some, but the likely COUNTRY of origin.
Some of the above replies show that some Members are quite happy to have only a vague idea of where their particular pieces originate. I prefer (where possible), to narrow things down to a particular country or region.
Each to their own I guess......
Stu

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

What I have tried to point out is that when a question is asked as to ORIGIN of a piece, what is actually being asked is "Where does this piece COME FROM?" It may be Ottoman, and if it is, what particular country within what was the Ottoman Empire does it come from?............................... Some of the above replies show that some Members are quite happy to have only a vague idea of where their particular pieces originate. I prefer (where possible), to narrow things down to a particular country or region.
Stu

Stu, the problem is the lack of accurate information on were exactly many "Ottoman" armor and weapon items were manufactured. Most, if not all of us would be very happy to be able to pinpoint what country our items came from, but what sources can be used for this that are accurate and trustworthy?

Here is an example, this war hammer is in my opinion "Ottoman". How can I verify that, what reference will tell me with any certainty that this was manufactured in the Ottoman empire and what country in the Ottoman Empire it originated from. Right now I would probably describe it as "Indo-Persian" (possibly Ottoman)

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

The confusion about this term is not unique.
After all, Ottoman implies Turkish Royal dynasty. It was in control for ~ 700 years and ruled over tribes of different ethnic and geographical origins.

In this sense it is not much different from our usage of Qajar swords, Ming vases or Tzarist Russian Shashkas. All objects from these groups could have been made in different times and different localities. Napoleonic swords are even more ambiguous: we imply era, but lump together French, German and British swords. Luckily, for them we have readable inscriptions and well-known patterns; those are as a rule unavailable on Ottoman weapons.

To sum up, we use the term "Ottoman" not because it is the best one, but simply because there is no more precise attribution.

I agree also and to sum up:
Is it the chicken who invented the egg or the egg who invented the chicken?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu.
Well. Now look what you've done. You've opened up a can of worms. And Indo-Persian would probably be a two cans of worms. LOL!!

"Indo-Persian" just takes all of the other umbrella terms such as "Ottoman", "Middle Eastern", "Oriental", Islamic", "Indian", "Persian", "Iranian" etc and puts them into one large umbrella category. I can remember a few years back when you still could barely find images of common arms and armor, let alone rare types, now there is a varitable buffet of images to see (and learn from), just a few search terms finds the majority of them...how nice!!

Indo-Persian weapons.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Indo...w=1918&bih=995

Indo-Persian armor.
https://www.google.com/search?q=indo...w=1918&bih=995