OTTOMAN....What do we mean?

estcrh · 22nd November 2015, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I notice that lately a lot of items are being described as "Ottoman" in origin. I am/was of the understanding that the term Ottoman was a period in history rather than a location.
To me it is like describing (for example) an African sword/club/knife as British just because the Brits once were "in charge" of a given area of the world......so what do we ACTUALLY mean when we describe something as Ottoman? To me it would mean a Turkish item from the Ottoman period, but I do not think that IS the origin of many of the pieces described this way.
Stu

To me, the term when applied to armor or weapons simply means that it originated from within the confines of the Ottoman Empire. That is quite a wide area and time period, not much different than describing an item as "European". From there you would have to narrow it down to a more specific area and time period, which sometimes can be quite difficult.

kahnjar1 · 22nd November 2015, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

To me, the term when applied to armor or weapons simply means that it originated from within the confines of the Ottoman Empire. That is quite a wide area and time period, not much different than describing an item as "European". From there you would have to narrow it down to a more specific area and time period, which sometimes can be quite difficult.

Exactly my point......Usually when a Member asks for origin, he or she is looking to find out the ORIGIN of an item, in other words,where it ACTUALLY comes from......
"Ottoman" simply (as you say) means it came from some part of the Ottoman Empire within some time period that the Empire existed. It really does not tell us much does it?
Stu

estcrh · 22nd November 2015, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Exactly my point......Usually when a Member asks for origin, he or she is looking to find out the ORIGIN of an item, in other words,where it ACTUALLY comes from......
"Ottoman" simply (as you say) means it came from some part of the Ottoman Empire within some time period that the Empire existed. It really does not tell us much does it?
Stu

Stu, I cant wait until we discuss the term "Indo-Persian"!!!

kahnjar1 · 22nd November 2015, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Stu, I cant wait until we discuss the term "Indo-Persian"!!!

Me either, but another thread would be better for that. It's just that "Ottoman" seems to be the current buzz word for describing almost anything which is of questioned (not questionable) origin.

harrywagner · 22nd November 2015, 01:36 PM

Slightly off topic, but if you have not already read "The fall of the Ottomans" by Eugene Rogan, I recommend it.

ariel · 22nd November 2015, 04:02 PM

Turkish weapons made enormous impact on other Ottoman weapon centers. This is why it is so difficult to pinpoint the exact location of the manufacturer.
Yataghan is an example.
We can be certain only about two subtypes: Zeibek and Laz Bichaq.
Less certain are the North African, Cretan and Focan.
But we cannot distinguish between the Anatolian proper and the Balkan/ Greek/ Bulgarian. Out of necessity we call them Ottoman.

Also, yataghan blades were made. Largely in Turkey and the Balkans; from there they went across the Empire. How should we define examples: by the blade or by the handle/decorations? Again, "Ottoman" is the safest bet.

Somehow, daggers are easier to pinpoint: they must have been less regimented

DaveA · 22nd November 2015, 07:48 PM

Often the regional variations on a common design theme are the most fascinating aspects to me. Saying "Ottoman" merely gives me a set of design themes (e.g., "yataghan") and historical period. Useful, but insufficient IMHO. Indo-Persian was mentioned as a similar challenge. I also think that some ethnic groups that extend across current geopolitical boundaries engender similar questions about the actual location of origin (for example, the Shan of Myanmar/Thailand/China/Laos).

22nd November 2015, 01:36 PM	#5
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Otoman Slightly off topic, but if you have not already read "The fall of the Ottomans" by Eugene Rogan, I recommend it.

22nd November 2015, 04:02 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Turkish weapons made enormous impact on other Ottoman weapon centers. This is why it is so difficult to pinpoint the exact location of the manufacturer. Yataghan is an example. We can be certain only about two subtypes: Zeibek and Laz Bichaq. Less certain are the North African, Cretan and Focan. But we cannot distinguish between the Anatolian proper and the Balkan/ Greek/ Bulgarian. Out of necessity we call them Ottoman. Also, yataghan blades were made. Largely in Turkey and the Balkans; from there they went across the Empire. How should we define examples: by the blade or by the handle/decorations? Again, "Ottoman" is the safest bet. Somehow, daggers are easier to pinpoint: they must have been less regimented

22nd November 2015, 07:48 PM	#7
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 416	Often the regional variations on a common design theme are the most fascinating aspects to me. Saying "Ottoman" merely gives me a set of design themes (e.g., "yataghan") and historical period. Useful, but insufficient IMHO. Indo-Persian was mentioned as a similar challenge. I also think that some ethnic groups that extend across current geopolitical boundaries engender similar questions about the actual location of origin (for example, the Shan of Myanmar/Thailand/China/Laos).