Edged weapons for women?

David · 16th November 2015, 03:42 PM

In some parts of Indonesia a smaller version of the keris known as a patrem is carried by women of certain social stature.

CutlassCollector · 16th November 2015, 05:03 PM

Great link Roland, thanks.

Fernando, yes although the sabre looked slim and light I could not tell whether it was specifically lighter than one for an equivalent male unit. Anything else written about it was lost in translation. Judging from some of the other posts perhaps size did not matter so much!
I like the daggers for 'women of the night' and perhaps one can imagine that wealthier madams had ones made to order.

Thanks for all the posts, interesting stuff. It would be good to see a picture of a patrem/small keris or a kwaiken/small tanto made for a woman.

And thanks, also, for those posts that remind us that a modern western view of women is too narrow to encompass geography and history.

CC

Timo Nieminen · 17th November 2015, 11:45 PM

There are some East Asian knives for women.

Korea: The ones in posts #6, #18, #19 (and some others) are women's knives: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15166
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunjangdo

The Japanese equivalent s the kaiken, 懐剣 = "breast/bosom sword", which could be translated as "hidden knife":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiken_(dagger)
Unlike the Korean version, which functioned as display as well as a weapon, the Japanese version is hidden and thus purely a weapon. Men would carry them too.

The Japanese naginata is often considered a traditional samurai women's weapon. The wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata claims that there were naginata specifically for women (smaller than men's naginata). Other than that, women warriors/soldiers usually used the same weapons as men.

Pukka Bundook · 18th November 2015, 02:32 AM

Well put Timo.

When we stop to consider it, most swords, for instance (apart from some of the terrible reproductions ) are not at all heavy, so a woman would not be disadvantaged by their weight, even if from a part of the world where they were not a "beast of burden" (!)
My daughter in her early 20's and a mere whisp of a thing, hardly ever lost when sparring against the lads with Viking -age type swords. Reason? she was not afraid of them, and had decided ahead of time that she would not lose!
As she put it, "losing isn't an option". Maybe this sentiment isn't new.

Timo Nieminen · 18th November 2015, 08:51 AM

I'm skeptical about the naginata claim. There is probably a difference in size in naginata used by men on the battlefield, and naginata known to be used by women; the latter will, on average, be smaller. But this is affected by age. Earlier naginata tended to be larger, with blades becoming shorter and lighter in later times, even when naginata were still a major battlefield weapon (they largely disappeared from the battlefield in the 16th century, as warfare went to pike (i.e., long yari) and musket). Edo Period naginata were, on average, even smaller - even the ones carried by men. It's these late naginata that we know were used by women.

Tomoe Gozen, a famous woman warrior of the 12th century, is often portrayed with a naginata. However, the written sources describe her as armed with a powerful bow and a large sword. I.e., equipped the same as a male samurai, but with a stronger bow and larger sword.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomoe_Gozen

Anyway, women don't seem to have difficulty wielding quite large naginata:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wem9KZeFKEA

Pukka Bundook · 18th November 2015, 03:05 PM

Very nice to watch Timo!

Thank you.

ariel · 25th November 2015, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Anyway, women don't seem to have difficulty wielding quite large naginata:
[url

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wem9KZeFKEA[/url]

Well, they learned early on that longer is better

DaveA · 25th November 2015, 05:55 AM

In Sumatra, the siraui is easily concealed in the hair of women or folds of clothing. It is both a working knife and a self defense weapon. I do not think it is specific for women; merely one that is preferred.

Sajen · 25th November 2015, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

In Sumatra, the siraui is easily concealed in the hair of women or folds of clothing. It is both a working knife and a self defense weapon. I do not think it is specific for women; merely one that is preferred.

Hello Dave,

the shown knife isn't a siraui, we still look for the correct name of this knives. For a real siraui look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=siraui

Regards,
Detlef

DaveA · 25th November 2015, 07:47 PM

Thank you. I will reexamine my sources.
Dave

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Dave,

the shown knife isn't a siraui, we still look for the correct name of this knives. For a real siraui look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=siraui

Regards,
Detlef

David · 25th November 2015, 07:55 PM

The Sangi is often referred to as a "woman's knife" though men apparently use them as well.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=sangi

Sajen · 25th November 2015, 08:26 PM

The curved small knives from Indonesia, korambit, lawi ayam are typical woman knives.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=lawi+ayam
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=lawi+ayam
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=korambit

DaveA · 25th November 2015, 07:52 PM

Thank you. I will reexamine my sources.
Dave

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Dave,

the shown knife isn't a siraui, we still look for the correct name of this knives. For a real siraui look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=siraui

Regards,
Detlef

25th November 2015, 05:55 AM	#8
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	Siraui In Sumatra, the siraui is easily concealed in the hair of women or folds of clothing. It is both a working knife and a self defense weapon. I do not think it is specific for women; merely one that is preferred. Attached Images

16th November 2015, 03:42 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	In some parts of Indonesia a smaller version of the keris known as a patrem is carried by women of certain social stature.

16th November 2015, 05:03 PM	#2
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	Great link Roland, thanks. Fernando, yes although the sabre looked slim and light I could not tell whether it was specifically lighter than one for an equivalent male unit. Anything else written about it was lost in translation. Judging from some of the other posts perhaps size did not matter so much! I like the daggers for 'women of the night' and perhaps one can imagine that wealthier madams had ones made to order. Thanks for all the posts, interesting stuff. It would be good to see a picture of a patrem/small keris or a kwaiken/small tanto made for a woman. And thanks, also, for those posts that remind us that a modern western view of women is too narrow to encompass geography and history. CC

17th November 2015, 11:45 PM	#3
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	There are some East Asian knives for women. Korea: The ones in posts #6, #18, #19 (and some others) are women's knives: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15166 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunjangdo The Japanese equivalent s the kaiken, 懐剣 = "breast/bosom sword", which could be translated as "hidden knife": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiken_(dagger) Unlike the Korean version, which functioned as display as well as a weapon, the Japanese version is hidden and thus purely a weapon. Men would carry them too. The Japanese naginata is often considered a traditional samurai women's weapon. The wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata claims that there were naginata specifically for women (smaller than men's naginata). Other than that, women warriors/soldiers usually used the same weapons as men.

18th November 2015, 02:32 AM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Well put Timo. When we stop to consider it, most swords, for instance (apart from some of the terrible reproductions ) are not at all heavy, so a woman would not be disadvantaged by their weight, even if from a part of the world where they were not a "beast of burden" (!) My daughter in her early 20's and a mere whisp of a thing, hardly ever lost when sparring against the lads with Viking -age type swords. Reason? she was not afraid of them, and had decided ahead of time that she would not lose! As she put it, "losing isn't an option". Maybe this sentiment isn't new.

18th November 2015, 08:51 AM	#5
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	I'm skeptical about the naginata claim. There is probably a difference in size in naginata used by men on the battlefield, and naginata known to be used by women; the latter will, on average, be smaller. But this is affected by age. Earlier naginata tended to be larger, with blades becoming shorter and lighter in later times, even when naginata were still a major battlefield weapon (they largely disappeared from the battlefield in the 16th century, as warfare went to pike (i.e., long yari) and musket). Edo Period naginata were, on average, even smaller - even the ones carried by men. It's these late naginata that we know were used by women. Tomoe Gozen, a famous woman warrior of the 12th century, is often portrayed with a naginata. However, the written sources describe her as armed with a powerful bow and a large sword. I.e., equipped the same as a male samurai, but with a stronger bow and larger sword. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomoe_Gozen Anyway, women don't seem to have difficulty wielding quite large naginata: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wem9KZeFKEA

18th November 2015, 03:05 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Very nice to watch Timo! Thank you.

25th November 2015, 07:55 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	The Sangi is often referred to as a "woman's knife" though men apparently use them as well. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=sangi

25th November 2015, 08:26 PM	#12
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	The curved small knives from Indonesia, korambit, lawi ayam are typical woman knives. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=lawi+ayam http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=lawi+ayam http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=korambit