Flintlock Pair, Need help Identifying

Pukka Bundook · 7th November 2015, 02:49 AM

I believe these pistols are Turkish/Ottoman, with European locks finished in the near east.

The trigger-guards do not look French to me, and the engraving isn't French either.
For Turkish pistols, these are very high -end. Congratulations on finding them!
Actually, going by the lock -work, they appear English locks....

Edited to correct my English lock bit!
On looking at the lock-work again, I see detachable pans. more or less unheard of in England.

Andreas · 7th November 2015, 10:19 AM

Hello,
The barrels are certainly French, the crowned AM is a St Etienne proof mark, and the name JEAN BROSARS appears in several examples, ca 1810.
Andreas

rickystl · 7th November 2015, 08:15 PM

Did you perhaps mean false ramrods? Because they are definitely not functional or full in length. Unless you meant something else by full?

Oh, ok. They are the "short" ramrods. That is one of the two variations of the "false ramrod".
Also, note the European style trigger vs the flat curl trigger usually encountered on the Balkan made pieces.

Thanks for the pics of the locks, also decorated in Ottoman style for local tastes.

Rick

rickystl · 7th November 2015, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

Hello,
The barrels are certainly French, the crowned AM is a St Etienne proof mark, and the name JEAN BROSARS appears in several examples, ca 1810.
Andreas

Now that is interesting. Thank you Andreas!!
Rick.

Chertbolt · 7th November 2015, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Hello,
The barrels are certainly French, the crowned AM is a St Etienne proof mark, and the name JEAN BROSARS appears in several examples, ca 1810.
Andreas

I agree with Rick. Very Interesting! I had searched for the proof mark but could not find it referenced anywhere. I am still learning!

Would you mind sharing where you have seen this proof mark documented?

I am also very interested in knowing more about Jean Brosars and where you have seen other examples baring his name. Any information would be of great help. My mother is an experienced genealogical researcher and is working on this name as well as the Arabic inscription of 'George Abraham' to try and find more information.

She did find a Syrian man by the name of George Abraham that lived 20 minutes away from the earliest known owner of these pistols, whom would be my uncles father. Though we have not found any solid connections to say for certain that this is the same George Abraham.

Will update as we find more information.

For now here are some more pictures.

Andreas · 8th November 2015, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chertbolt

I agree with Rick. Very Interesting! I had searched for the proof mark but could not find it referenced anywhere. I am still learning!

Would you mind sharing where you have seen this proof mark documented?

This crown is characteristic of the Saint Etienne proof bench. The AM is attributed to Auguste Merley, controller for civilian weapons (retired 1810). Please see here

HTML Code:

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t91622-vos-avis-sur-differents-pistolets-anciens

and here

HTML Code:

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t63478-restauration-pistolet-1er-empire

, also for images of Brosars barrels.
Andreas

Ian · 8th November 2015, 01:41 PM

Thank you Andreas. Excellent sources and directly relevant to the items under discussion. Chertbolt now has an answer to his question as to where these were made and by whom. As he correctly noted in his original post, any discussion of the value of his pistols needs to be via email or PM.

Ian.

Pukka Bundook · 8th November 2015, 02:15 PM

Ian,

I think Chertbolt has an answer to where the barrels and locks were produced, but still believe these pistols were made and certainly engraved in the Near East.
They are very good for that area, but without wishing anyone to think I am finding fault with them, the finish and engraving is not up to even middling French standards.
I find it very difficult to believe that a French gunsmith could work down to this level of workmanship.
Please do not take this as a derogatory remark. I really Do believe that these are Good quality, better by far than average for that area of the world.

Chertbolt · 10th November 2015, 06:59 PM

Andreas, thank you for those links! It was fun to see other examples with the Brosar name and even the same proof mark!

I did find this online book that mentions Auguste Merley, Though I do not read French so I'm not exactly sure what it says about him.

I also discovered the Saint Etienne proof house is still in operation.
Saint Etienne Website

Thank you again to all that have contributed to this thread!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

This crown is characteristic of the Saint Etienne proof bench. The AM is attributed to Auguste Merley, controller for civilian weapons (retired 1810). Please see here

HTML Code:

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t91622-vos-avis-sur-differents-pistolets-anciens

and here

HTML Code:

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t63478-restauration-pistolet-1er-empire

, also for images of Brosars barrels.
Andreas

rickystl · 7th November 2015, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I believe these pistols are Turkish/Ottoman, with European locks finished in the near east.

The trigger-guards do not look French to me, and the engraving isn't French either.
For Turkish pistols, these are very high -end. Congratulations on finding them!
Actually, going by the lock -work, they appear English locks....

Edited to correct my English lock bit!
On looking at the lock-work again, I see detachable pans. more or less unheard of in England.

Hi Richard.
Yes, they could have been final assembled in the Balkans from European parts. Just the locks and barrels imported. But when I look at the European style triggers, along with everything else, I still believe these pistols were finished and assembled in Europe for export.
The engraving on the trigger guards look typical generic Ottoman/Balkan. And could have easily been done in Europe, or locally since the guards appear to be iron forgings.
And I see what you mean by the locks. They have both English and French styling cues. Hmmm.
Rick.

7th November 2015, 02:49 AM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I believe these pistols are Turkish/Ottoman, with European locks finished in the near east. The trigger-guards do not look French to me, and the engraving isn't French either. For Turkish pistols, these are very high -end. Congratulations on finding them! Actually, going by the lock -work, they appear English locks.... Edited to correct my English lock bit! On looking at the lock-work again, I see detachable pans. more or less unheard of in England.

7th November 2015, 10:19 AM	#2
Andreas Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ionian Islands, Greece Posts: 96	Hello, The barrels are certainly French, the crowned AM is a St Etienne proof mark, and the name JEAN BROSARS appears in several examples, ca 1810. Andreas

7th November 2015, 08:15 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Did you perhaps mean false ramrods? Because they are definitely not functional or full in length. Unless you meant something else by full? Oh, ok. They are the "short" ramrods. That is one of the two variations of the "false ramrod". Also, note the European style trigger vs the flat curl trigger usually encountered on the Balkan made pieces. Thanks for the pics of the locks, also decorated in Ottoman style for local tastes. Rick

8th November 2015, 01:41 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	Thank you Andreas. Excellent sources and directly relevant to the items under discussion. Chertbolt now has an answer to his question as to where these were made and by whom. As he correctly noted in his original post, any discussion of the value of his pistols needs to be via email or PM. Ian.

8th November 2015, 02:15 PM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Ian, I think Chertbolt has an answer to where the barrels and locks were produced, but still believe these pistols were made and certainly engraved in the Near East. They are very good for that area, but without wishing anyone to think I am finding fault with them, the finish and engraving is not up to even middling French standards. I find it very difficult to believe that a French gunsmith could work down to this level of workmanship. Please do not take this as a derogatory remark. I really Do believe that these are Good quality, better by far than average for that area of the world.