Indian Swords with downward curving blades

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Interesting discussion veering off to the infamous "name game" :-)

Yes, it has a Cho, which is a feature of Nepalese origin.
But it also has an Indo-Persian Mughal handle, which is seen on Sosun Patas .

Yes. There were longer Kukris , but what prevents SP to be shorter than the average?

Yes, Moghul SP often had yataghan-resembling, or even pure yataghan, blades. But the Indian ones had very different configuration of blades, often similar to the presented one.

What I am driving at, Nepalese armory had a mixture of indigenous and Rajput weapons, and hybrid forms were inavoidable.

Perhaps, I just forgot to add a smiley face after my mention of SP to just acknowledge that weapons do mutate, do enter "holy matrimony" :-) with examples from other cultures , and the final results are unpredictable, difficult to pigeonhole and ... beautiful!

Please see Artzi's description of:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2129
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2052
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3487

Well supported rebuttal, and excellently stated perspective .

[Ian]

Ariel:

I agree that there could easily be some mingling of styles between the kukri and sossun patta. Both are recurved blades, and I could see a Rajput warrior saying something like, "I want a sossun patta that is a bit shorter than usual for close quarter work, but heavier in the belly--a bit like that one from Nepal you showed me the other day, only longer." These types of discussion must have gone on for centuries among men-at-arms of all races and nations. The search for a perfect weapon for a particular task must have been never ending, borrowing from here and there trying to get it right.

The Mongols, of course, unhesitatingly adopted whatever they thought was useful, simply absorbing (and being absorbed by) all they conquered. Since we are dealing with a Mughal (Mongol) influenced weapon in the sossun patta, I'm sure their instincts would have been to modify and improve it any way that seemed useful.

Ian

[Jens Nordlunde]

As can be seen in many stone reliefs and hero stones, it is known that forward curves 'knives' in earlier times were used in Deccan/south India.
It is hard to say how long they were, but it seems as if they were shorter than the swords used at the time.
Why they 'moved' to the north is hard to say, but it could be, as I read somewhere, that a population was driven away, and went to the north, bringing their weapos and culture with them.

[Miguel]

Hi, I would like to thank yu all for participating in this thread which has proved most interesting todate.
Emanuel I thoroughly enjoyed the links but the conflicts of opinion between the reference works and "experts" can be somewhat confusing.

Jim, Thanks for your comments although I don't agree with your thoughts on the plain weapon being for sacrificial purposes, if it was I believe it would have some decoration or inscription. I believe it to be a purely fighting weapon due to its robust no nonsense construction and well forged blade. I just hope that someone will translate or identify the stamp so that a region in either India or Nepal can be identified.

Ariel, Thanks for your comments, images and links which show very clearly that the plain weapon is a hybrid Kukri / Sosson Pattah which I am pleased about because it is what I thought but did not mention it as I did not wish to lead anybody.

Ian, Thanks that is a more than likely possible scenario.

Jens, Thanks for your interesting comments which sooner or later will be confirmed researchers in this field.

I am still surprised that this hybrid weapon does not appear to have definitive name. The Kora which was also copied by the Indians and fitted with a Talwar hilt has two Indian names being known as a Jamadhar Teg or a Kharga.
Miguel

[Emanuel]

That's why I said semantics Ariel

If this sword came from a Nepalese armoury, a Nepalese would probably call it a khukri.
If it came from a Mughal armoury a Mughal might call it a sossoun pata.
A Rajput might call it...and so on.

The cho is generally characteristic of khukri. The rest is semantics

Confusing indeed Miguel.

[Jim McDougall]

Good point Miguel, and quite true, this very well have been a combat weapon. It does seem that the sacrificial examples would have had more symbolic decoration, though not always. It would be interesting if we could know more on that deep stamp.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Good point Miguel, and quite true, this very well have been a combat weapon. It does seem that the sacrificial examples would have had more symbolic decoration, though not always. It would be interesting if we could know more on that deep stamp.

Hi Jim, Thanks for your reply. I must admit that since posting this thread I have learned a lot more information about Nepalese weapons making me realize how little I new before. It has made me look at them in a different light and do more research. From old threads and websites the information gleaned can be most confusing. You would think that as Nepal has only two principle weapons the origins would be clear, particularly the Kukri being such an iconic weapon but no one knows r sure although there are plenty of theories most of which seem plausible but none which can be conclusively proved. I must admit to subscribing to the Kopis theory and adopted from the the downward curving weapons of the Rajputs, but since seeing images of the earliest known Kukri against an old Kora (Kouda) my thinking has changed to it being derived from these weapons, but I guess we may never know.
Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.
Regards. Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Try to have a look at post 12.
I write that the people moved to the north.
I am sorry that I can not help you any more, but I read it very long time ago, so I dont yet remember where I read it, and I have no notes about it.
My guess would be, that you should make a search of a whole population moving from Deccan to the north, after a big battle in the 10th to the 13th century.
I may be wrong, but this is as I remember it, and it was many years ago I read it.
Jens

[russel]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Jim, Thanks for your reply. I must admit that since posting this thread I have learned a lot more information about Nepalese weapons making me realize how little I new before. It has made me look at them in a different light and do more research. From old threads and websites the information gleaned can be most confusing. You would think that as Nepal has only two principle weapons the origins would be clear, particularly the Kukri being such an iconic weapon but no one knows r sure although there are plenty of theories most of which seem plausible but none which can be conclusively proved. I must admit to subscribing to the Kopis theory and adopted from the the downward curving weapons of the Rajputs, but since seeing images of the earliest known Kukri against an old Kora (Kouda) my thinking has changed to it being derived from these weapons, but I guess we may never know.
Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.
Regards. Miguel

Lovely Kora, stunning quillwork on the scabbard.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Jim, Thanks for your reply. I must admit that since posting this thread I have learned a lot more information about Nepalese weapons making me realize how little I new before. It has made me look at them in a different light and do more research. From old threads and websites the information gleaned can be most confusing. You would think that as Nepal has only two principle weapons the origins would be clear, particularly the Kukri being such an iconic weapon but no one knows r sure although there are plenty of theories most of which seem plausible but none which can be conclusively proved. I must admit to subscribing to the Kopis theory and adopted from the the downward curving weapons of the Rajputs, but since seeing images of the earliest known Kukri against an old Kora (Kouda) my thinking has changed to it being derived from these weapons, but I guess we may never know.
Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.
Regards. Miguel

Miguel, thank you for posting this outstanding kora! You are right, every time we think we have things pretty much cornered on the arms of certain cultures, regions and classifications .....more is revealed and we find that all we have done is added more questions
After decades of study I can consider myself a somewhat advanced novice.
Excellent posts and discussion, nicely done.

Jens, with the mountains of obscure and esoteric material you have plowed through for these many years, I think it quite acceptable that your source might me out of reach at the moment!

[mrcjgscott]

Dear Miguel,

Firstly my apologies for coming to this thread so late, it obviously slipped under my radar!

Thank you for sharing your kukri's with us. The top one has been correctly identified, infact I saw one last month in quite a famous art collection, with the rest of the suite of arms which accompanied it dispersed around the villa housing the collection. The labels stated acquired in 1904.

Such stands of arms were a very fashionable accessory in well to do households of the time, and as well as the catalogue in Berkley's post, I have seen a similar advertisements in the UK.

The second example certainly means business, almost certainly for fighting rather than sacrifice, although it could accomplish that if required. I am most intrigued by the armoury stamp.

I have seen a few with similar markings, but they are not often found. Would it be possible to see a clearer image? I'll see if I can find any comparable examples.

Originally Posted by Miguel

Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.

Many thanks for showing us the Kora, probably one of the finest I have seen, and stunning when accompanied by that beautiful silver and quill work sheath.

I am yet to acquire a kora, despite having quite a few kukris, and you have certainly given me something to aspire to-thank you!

Kind regards,

Chris

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

That's why I said semantics Ariel

If this sword came from a Nepalese armoury, a Nepalese would probably call it a khukri.
If it came from a Mughal armoury a Mughal might call it a sossoun pata.
A Rajput might call it...and so on.

The cho is generally characteristic of khukri. The rest is semantics

Confusing indeed Miguel.

Hi Emanuel, I have reached the conclusion that you are correct in this case it is semantics.
Regards. Miguel