Basket hilted swords

ulfberth · 27th October 2015, 04:59 PM

Hi Jim,

Thanks for you comment especially under the difficult circumstances.
I am very interested in the Jacobite symbols , there even seems to be a connection to 17th and 18th C Freemasonry , any comments or hidden knowledge that can be revealed would be most welcome.

kind regards

Ulfberth

Cathey · 15th November 2015, 04:05 AM

Hi Guys, this is the last of my Black watch pattern swords

Date: Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Nationality: Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment
Overall Length: 96.8 cm (38.1 inches)
Blade length: 82.8 cm (32.6 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.5 cm (1.4 inches) fuller runs 63.9 cm (25.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 16 cm (6.3 inches)
Inside grip length: 12 cm (4.7 inches)
Marks, etc: Nil

Description
English Black Watch basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1750-70. Straight single edged fullered blade 32” blade 82.8 cm. Overall Length 38.2“, 96.8 cm. Although unmarked the hilt pattern suggests the Maker to be Jeffrey’s of London. Regulation Jefferys hilt, panels pierced with triangular darted and circular openings, line engravings included in panel decoration. The three branches of the guard are riveted to a ring which fits around the truncated conical pommel with spherical button, leather grip wire missing.

General Remarks
Slight difference in Guard construction indicates this sword was probably supplied by Nathaniel Jefferys London. No maker, retailer or Military marks found.

When I compare this sword to my two others by Dury the guard is distinctly different. In referring to this as Black Watch I am really referring to the pattern, this sword could have been used by other regiments at the time.

Given the variation in quality I have seen in these swords I concur with others that it is likely they were manufactured either whole or in part by other cutlers beside Drury and Jeffries. All three in my collection have quite substantial and well-made guards, however I have seen others with guards that felt almost like tin as they were so light and poorly made.

References:
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF ARMS COLLECTORS: BOOK OF Edged Weapons. Plate 4 pp209
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341
DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784 published by Andrew Moebray Inc pp13,
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s, pp42 plate 243.S
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 18th November 2015, 07:03 PM

This exact hilt is shown in Wallace, "Scottish Swords & Dirks" (#42) with the same guard plate piercings and outline, pommel, etc. and with a blade marked Jeffries (Nathaniel, London, worked 1768-79). There is the GR on the blade.
While no 'pattern' officially designated (first known date for such was 1757)and the first contractor records were in 1759, it appears that Black Watch must have had their own regimental pattern pre 1757 (as noted in reference re: mutiny 1743 where some men noted as having 'non regimental' swords) .

These seem to have developed by Jeffries (London) and Dru Drury of Birmingham from earlier government contract swords based on the Glasgow type hilts (possibly SImpson Glasgow?)/

Cathey · 20th December 2015, 03:21 AM

Brass hilted Pattern 1798 Offices Basket Hilt
Date: c1798
Nationality: Scottish
Overall Length: 38 ¼” 97.1cm
Blade length: 32 ¾” 83.2 cm
Blade widest point: 1.1/2” 3.7 cm
Hilt widest point: 5 ¼” 13.5 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.2 cm
Marks, etc.: J J Runkel Solingen (only the letters J J R and gen are clear)

Description
Basket Hilt-Scottish-c1798-Highland Officer broadsword Brass hilt
Highland infantry officer's broadsword; the type carried by Scottish infantry regiments during the Peninsula War and Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon's forces. The single fullered broad sword blade is marked J J Runkel Solingen, has been ground at some point which gives it the illusion of being watered. The hilt is brass hilt is constructed of solid plain panels and has remnants of past gilding. The grip is fish skin with brass wire. Provenance : William Kearney Collection (Adams Auctions Dublin 1990)

General Remarks
The 1798 Pattern was the first attempt by the British to standardize sword patterns for the Scottish regiments and was very loose in some respects, with blades coming from Solingen (Prussia / Germany), England and Scotland, clearly with officers mounting the blades from their existing pre-pattern. All highlander officers were wearing this sword at Waterloo. Scottish regiments from loyalist families as well as some rearmed rebel families who had sworn allegiance to the king, were fielded in the war with France. Officers were armed with these swords as a concession to their fiercely defended Scottish heritage.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Cathey · 17th January 2016, 12:44 AM

Hi Guys

I am now running into my more contemporary basket hilts, although this is one of two private purchase examples I have that are pre-date the 1828 Pattern.

Nationality: British importer, Scottish Sword with German Blade
Date: Circa 1800-1808
Maker/Retailer: J J Runkel
Overall Length: 39” 99 cm
Blade length; 33” 83.8 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.9 cm
Hilt widest point: 5 2/4” 13.7 cm
Inside grip length: 4” 10.1 cm
Marks, etc.: J J Runkel Solingen

Description
SCOTTISH STEEL BASKET HILT SWORD: 33" double edged blade marked RUNKEL SOLINGEN to both sides with areas of light & dark staining & short fullers; very good hilt & pommel with grey finish; fish skin grips bound with woven silver wire.

General Remarks
From around 1778 to 1808 J J Runkel imported many thousands of swords and blades from Solingen for the British Market. From around 1800 the spelling of Solingen changed by the omission of the ‘h’ between the ó’and ‘l’.

At first glance this sword appears to be a typical regimental 828 pattern basket hilt, however when you put this sword alongside a more traditional 1828 the guard has a number of differences. The first is the blade, these pre-pattern or private purchase baskets often sported the early Runkel blades common on the brass hilted 1798 pattern swords

Looking just at the hilt construction, the plate of the side guard is scalloped and decorated with circles and lines as apposed the regular pattern heart decoration. The outer shields have only four hearts and small circles as opposed to the eight hearts on the regular pattern example. The lobes on the side guards are not joined as in the 1828 pattern.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Cathey · 6th February 2016, 04:22 AM

Hi Guys

Whilst responding to this thread by Fernando [URL=http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=195638&posted=1#post195638]
I came across some additional examples of European Basket Hilts.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

15th November 2015, 04:05 AM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Black Watch Basket hilt - Jeffries Hi Guys, this is the last of my Black watch pattern swords Date: Circa 1750-70 (18th Century) Nationality: Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment Overall Length: 96.8 cm (38.1 inches) Blade length: 82.8 cm (32.6 inches) Blade widest point: 3.5 cm (1.4 inches) fuller runs 63.9 cm (25.2 inches) Hilt widest point: 16 cm (6.3 inches) Inside grip length: 12 cm (4.7 inches) Marks, etc: Nil Description English Black Watch basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1750-70. Straight single edged fullered blade 32” blade 82.8 cm. Overall Length 38.2“, 96.8 cm. Although unmarked the hilt pattern suggests the Maker to be Jeffrey’s of London. Regulation Jefferys hilt, panels pierced with triangular darted and circular openings, line engravings included in panel decoration. The three branches of the guard are riveted to a ring which fits around the truncated conical pommel with spherical button, leather grip wire missing. General Remarks Slight difference in Guard construction indicates this sword was probably supplied by Nathaniel Jefferys London. No maker, retailer or Military marks found. When I compare this sword to my two others by Dury the guard is distinctly different. In referring to this as Black Watch I am really referring to the pattern, this sword could have been used by other regiments at the time. Given the variation in quality I have seen in these swords I concur with others that it is likely they were manufactured either whole or in part by other cutlers beside Drury and Jeffries. All three in my collection have quite substantial and well-made guards, however I have seen others with guards that felt almost like tin as they were so light and poorly made. References: AMERICAN SOCIETY OF ARMS COLLECTORS: BOOK OF Edged Weapons. Plate 4 pp209 BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341 DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784 published by Andrew Moebray Inc pp13, NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s, pp42 plate 243.S Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100 Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

17th January 2016, 12:44 AM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Scottish Private Purchase Basket Hilt Hi Guys I am now running into my more contemporary basket hilts, although this is one of two private purchase examples I have that are pre-date the 1828 Pattern. Nationality: British importer, Scottish Sword with German Blade Date: Circa 1800-1808 Maker/Retailer: J J Runkel Overall Length: 39” 99 cm Blade length; 33” 83.8 cm Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.9 cm Hilt widest point: 5 2/4” 13.7 cm Inside grip length: 4” 10.1 cm Marks, etc.: J J Runkel Solingen Description SCOTTISH STEEL BASKET HILT SWORD: 33" double edged blade marked RUNKEL SOLINGEN to both sides with areas of light & dark staining & short fullers; very good hilt & pommel with grey finish; fish skin grips bound with woven silver wire. General Remarks From around 1778 to 1808 J J Runkel imported many thousands of swords and blades from Solingen for the British Market. From around 1800 the spelling of Solingen changed by the omission of the ‘h’ between the ó’and ‘l’. At first glance this sword appears to be a typical regimental 828 pattern basket hilt, however when you put this sword alongside a more traditional 1828 the guard has a number of differences. The first is the blade, these pre-pattern or private purchase baskets often sported the early Runkel blades common on the brass hilted 1798 pattern swords Looking just at the hilt construction, the plate of the side guard is scalloped and decorated with circles and lines as apposed the regular pattern heart decoration. The outer shields have only four hearts and small circles as opposed to the eight hearts on the regular pattern example. The lobes on the side guards are not joined as in the 1828 pattern. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

6th February 2016, 04:22 AM	#6
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	European Basket Hilts Hi Guys Whilst responding to this thread by Fernando [URL=http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=195638&posted=1#post195638] I came across some additional examples of European Basket Hilts. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

27th October 2015, 04:59 PM	#1
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 424	Hi Jim, Thanks for you comment especially under the difficult circumstances. I am very interested in the Jacobite symbols , there even seems to be a connection to 17th and 18th C Freemasonry , any comments or hidden knowledge that can be revealed would be most welcome. kind regards Ulfberth

18th November 2015, 07:03 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This exact hilt is shown in Wallace, "Scottish Swords & Dirks" (#42) with the same guard plate piercings and outline, pommel, etc. and with a blade marked Jeffries (Nathaniel, London, worked 1768-79). There is the GR on the blade. While no 'pattern' officially designated (first known date for such was 1757)and the first contractor records were in 1759, it appears that Black Watch must have had their own regimental pattern pre 1757 (as noted in reference re: mutiny 1743 where some men noted as having 'non regimental' swords) . These seem to have developed by Jeffries (London) and Dru Drury of Birmingham from earlier government contract swords based on the Glasgow type hilts (possibly SImpson Glasgow?)/

20th December 2015, 03:21 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Brass hilted Pattern 1798 Offices Basket Hilt Brass hilted Pattern 1798 Offices Basket Hilt Date: c1798 Nationality: Scottish Overall Length: 38 ¼” 97.1cm Blade length: 32 ¾” 83.2 cm Blade widest point: 1.1/2” 3.7 cm Hilt widest point: 5 ¼” 13.5 cm Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.2 cm Marks, etc.: J J Runkel Solingen (only the letters J J R and gen are clear) Description Basket Hilt-Scottish-c1798-Highland Officer broadsword Brass hilt Highland infantry officer's broadsword; the type carried by Scottish infantry regiments during the Peninsula War and Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon's forces. The single fullered broad sword blade is marked J J Runkel Solingen, has been ground at some point which gives it the illusion of being watered. The hilt is brass hilt is constructed of solid plain panels and has remnants of past gilding. The grip is fish skin with brass wire. Provenance : William Kearney Collection (Adams Auctions Dublin 1990) General Remarks The 1798 Pattern was the first attempt by the British to standardize sword patterns for the Scottish regiments and was very loose in some respects, with blades coming from Solingen (Prussia / Germany), England and Scotland, clearly with officers mounting the blades from their existing pre-pattern. All highlander officers were wearing this sword at Waterloo. Scottish regiments from loyalist families as well as some rearmed rebel families who had sworn allegiance to the king, were fielded in the war with France. Officers were armed with these swords as a concession to their fiercely defended Scottish heritage. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images