Big, Heavy Flyssa - wield like a shashka?

DaveA · 22nd October 2015, 06:48 PM

Hello All,

Special greetings to the flyssa lovers on this forum. I know there are many threads regarding flyssa on the forum, but I have yet to find one that has any definitive information about the martial use of the weapon.

I have acquired a 42 ¼ inches OAL flyssa. The thickness of the blade is a robust ½ inch at the hilt, tapering to ¼ inch for 16 ½ inches. This is roughly the beginning of the convex "belly" of the edge. Thereafter, the width tapers from ¼ inch to 1/16 inch at the acute tip.

In handling the weapon, it is really only balanced when pointed straight up or straight down. I note that it is also too long to carry in an underarm position, much less stuck through a belt. It occurred to me that the weapon may have been carried on the back, with the hilt protruding over the shoulder. This would resemble how the shashka sword is carried. I'm not suggesting any linkage between the swords other than the mechanics of how it is carried and drawn. The shashka is drawn in an over the head manner that allows it to perform a slashing attack in one movement. The katana has a similar property.

In a personal experiment (without the scabbard, which is in fragile condition), I held the flyssa behind my back as if I had just grabbed the hilt. Surprisingly, it was relatively easy to pull the sword straight up and then swing down without stopping. This could probably be done while mounted or dismounted. A fencing, thrust style of attack is not feasible (as others have noted) due to the weight and balance of the sword.

(Seller's pictures are attached)

Your thoughts?

- Dave A.

Emanuel · 22nd October 2015, 07:42 PM

Hi Dave,

Congratulations on a beautiful piece from a flyssa-lover!

Funny enough you relate it to the shashka, I had the same thought some years ago: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2309 when some videos of dancing/fighting with shashka were posted. It seemed that the fighters led with the pommel, the blade following.

All of the illustrations we have of Kabyles with flyssa show them carried in a sash at the waist: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17552

Emanuel

kronckew · 22nd October 2015, 08:40 PM

interesting link back to that thread, emmanuel.

i note the rather realistic mannikin (attached) is carrying a second shorter flyssa vertically in his sash which looks more like mine (also attached).

p.s. - rather odd hat. makes him look rather silly i think.

DaveA · 22nd October 2015, 08:49 PM

Alas, I am unable to access either of the links to the videos. The first one returns server error, the second one asks me if I want to buy the domain

The illustrations both depict flyssa that are shorter than the one I have. To tuck it in a belt and not have the scabbard touch the ground, the flyssa hilt would need to point forward at a high degree, or cross the body front and center. As depicted in the illustration, my flyssa would scrape the ground.

- Dave

kronckew · 22nd October 2015, 08:58 PM

further east, horsemen frquently carried a longer narrow thrusting sword for use if their lance broke or was lost, an estoc, - it was used like a shorter lance which was not carried on their person, but strapped to their horse. i wonder if the longer flyssa were also horse mounted only.

there is a point where you either cannot draw the sword, or need help. i have seen illustrations of chinese that carried long anti-horse swords who paired and the drawing shows them each drawing the other partners sword rather than their own! see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...68&postcount=9

it also shows a man next to them gingerly palming the spine of his sword well down the blade, being careful not to put his fingers over the edge, as he removes from or reinserts into his scabbard.

Emanuel · 22nd October 2015, 09:04 PM

That's unfortunate. Perhaps a youtube search will bring up something similar.

The flyssa scabbards have one or two belt loops so they were worn with a belt/sash. The oldest dated flyssa actually still has a belt with it: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11842 .

I don't think that the small flyssa one was ever worn with the long one. Camille Lacoste-Dujardin's research suggests that they only started making the small ones after about 1850 when the long sword was obsolete and the French were finalizing their conquest of Algeria. Production shifted away from the Iflissen Kabyles and turned to small daggers and the curved flyssa types.

Emanuel

kronckew · 22nd October 2015, 09:11 PM

one must consider that the mannikin photo was also, like the other photo, staged, by the curators who dressed it and probably had no idea what they were doing. i still hate that hat

i really like that wide bladed one in your last thread ref by wodini at http://vikingsword.com/vb/attachment...id=95588&stc=1 - that one is a chopper!

DaveA · 22nd October 2015, 09:23 PM

As an amusing aside, I once visited a small museum of arms in the town of Torin, Italy. No one was there but the janitor, my wife and our friend who served as translator. The janitor overheard our conversation and perhaps decided I was not fully ignorant. He eagerly gave us a tour. I remarked to him that some of the exhibits were incongruous collections of weapons and other items that in no way could possibly go together. That started a tirade by the old guy who proceeded to point out all the idiocies in the exhibits. He loved that museum and the artifacts. He was very well informed — evidently more so than the curator!

- Dave A

22nd October 2015, 06:48 PM	#1
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Big, Heavy Flyssa - wield like a shashka? Hello All, Special greetings to the flyssa lovers on this forum. I know there are many threads regarding flyssa on the forum, but I have yet to find one that has any definitive information about the martial use of the weapon. I have acquired a 42 ¼ inches OAL flyssa. The thickness of the blade is a robust ½ inch at the hilt, tapering to ¼ inch for 16 ½ inches. This is roughly the beginning of the convex "belly" of the edge. Thereafter, the width tapers from ¼ inch to 1/16 inch at the acute tip. In handling the weapon, it is really only balanced when pointed straight up or straight down. I note that it is also too long to carry in an underarm position, much less stuck through a belt. It occurred to me that the weapon may have been carried on the back, with the hilt protruding over the shoulder. This would resemble how the shashka sword is carried. I'm not suggesting any linkage between the swords other than the mechanics of how it is carried and drawn. The shashka is drawn in an over the head manner that allows it to perform a slashing attack in one movement. The katana has a similar property. In a personal experiment (without the scabbard, which is in fragile condition), I held the flyssa behind my back as if I had just grabbed the hilt. Surprisingly, it was relatively easy to pull the sword straight up and then swing down without stopping. This could probably be done while mounted or dismounted. A fencing, thrust style of attack is not feasible (as others have noted) due to the weight and balance of the sword. (Seller's pictures are attached) Your thoughts? - Dave A. Attached Images

22nd October 2015, 08:40 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	interesting link back to that thread, emmanuel. i note the rather realistic mannikin (attached) is carrying a second shorter flyssa vertically in his sash which looks more like mine (also attached). p.s. - rather odd hat. makes him look rather silly i think. Attached Images

22nd October 2015, 08:49 PM	#4
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Links dead Alas, I am unable to access either of the links to the videos. The first one returns server error, the second one asks me if I want to buy the domain The illustrations both depict flyssa that are shorter than the one I have. To tuck it in a belt and not have the scabbard touch the ground, the flyssa hilt would need to point forward at a high degree, or cross the body front and center. As depicted in the illustration, my flyssa would scrape the ground. - Dave

22nd October 2015, 09:23 PM	#8
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	the janitor and the museum curator story As an amusing aside, I once visited a small museum of arms in the town of Torin, Italy. No one was there but the janitor, my wife and our friend who served as translator. The janitor overheard our conversation and perhaps decided I was not fully ignorant. He eagerly gave us a tour. I remarked to him that some of the exhibits were incongruous collections of weapons and other items that in no way could possibly go together. That started a tirade by the old guy who proceeded to point out all the idiocies in the exhibits. He loved that museum and the artifacts. He was very well informed — evidently more so than the curator! - Dave A

22nd October 2015, 07:42 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Dave, Congratulations on a beautiful piece from a flyssa-lover! Funny enough you relate it to the shashka, I had the same thought some years ago: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2309 when some videos of dancing/fighting with shashka were posted. It seemed that the fighters led with the pommel, the blade following. All of the illustrations we have of Kabyles with flyssa show them carried in a sash at the waist: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17552 Emanuel

22nd October 2015, 08:58 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	further east, horsemen frquently carried a longer narrow thrusting sword for use if their lance broke or was lost, an estoc, - it was used like a shorter lance which was not carried on their person, but strapped to their horse. i wonder if the longer flyssa were also horse mounted only. there is a point where you either cannot draw the sword, or need help. i have seen illustrations of chinese that carried long anti-horse swords who paired and the drawing shows them each drawing the other partners sword rather than their own! see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...68&postcount=9 it also shows a man next to them gingerly palming the spine of his sword well down the blade, being careful not to put his fingers over the edge, as he removes from or reinserts into his scabbard.

22nd October 2015, 09:04 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	That's unfortunate. Perhaps a youtube search will bring up something similar. The flyssa scabbards have one or two belt loops so they were worn with a belt/sash. The oldest dated flyssa actually still has a belt with it: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11842 . I don't think that the small flyssa one was ever worn with the long one. Camille Lacoste-Dujardin's research suggests that they only started making the small ones after about 1850 when the long sword was obsolete and the French were finalizing their conquest of Algeria. Production shifted away from the Iflissen Kabyles and turned to small daggers and the curved flyssa types. Emanuel

22nd October 2015, 09:11 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	one must consider that the mannikin photo was also, like the other photo, staged, by the curators who dressed it and probably had no idea what they were doing. i still hate that hat i really like that wide bladed one in your last thread ref by wodini at http://vikingsword.com/vb/attachment...id=95588&stc=1 - that one is a chopper!