On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

Emanuel · 22nd October 2015, 05:17 PM

Hi Jens,

Simple answer is that I have no idea. A floral hilt on what we think of jamadhar with arm bars makes no sense.

Like you say, we dont know if it was so. We have multiple terms in English translations apparently used interchangeably (katar, katara, khanjar, jamadhar, khapwa). We still don't know if the term referred to specific handle type, blade type, curvature, thickness, or entire ensemble. The use of these terms seems to have changed over time place.

Maybe katara referred just to a narrow blade, slightly curved. Maybe not. Like most things, there were probably qualifiers to denote more specific uses (ex. slashing knife, stabbing knife, dagger, punch-dagger, etc...).

Based on the sources at my disposal, my thinking was that the term phul-katara matched a dagger that has a narrow, piercing, slightly curved blade, and some form of major floral hilt. Could be jewelled or not. Ivory, or other material like jade/nephratite.

Unless we go to the original texts and associate them with period illustrations, we know nothing

Then again we have the Ain-i-Akbari in Urdu, and the Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri in Persian covering matters in the Mughal context.

What do we have from the Rajputs?

Emanuel

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd October 2015, 06:11 PM

Emanuel,
We dont have very much hiis early, and the drawings like the ones from Ani-Akbar would at best leave something to guessing.
There is of course the description of the katar - katara/jamdhar/narsingh-moth.
My guess is, that the Europeians choose one name for daggers with this kind of hilt - but this is purely guessing.

The katars shown in the Akbar miniatures are clearly jamdahars, and I try to research this, as there is something funny/strange, but I am not prepared to discuss anything about it yet.

A pity I did not contact you when I was in Toronto some years ago :-).

Jens

Emanuel · 22nd October 2015, 07:17 PM

There are indeed some interesting things in those Akbar miniatures. I'm looking through the copies I found online and there is lots to extract and dissect.

A pity indeed. Next time you come by our shores, please do drop a line

Emanuel

Emanuel · 22nd October 2015, 08:09 PM

Having hijacked Mercenary's thread enough (my apologies

), I moved discussion of Akbar's weapons specifically, here: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20629

Emanuel

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd October 2015, 09:41 PM

I am sorry to say that it will not happend again - a trip to Canada. I found it fantastic - but I hated the time of flying to Canada and over Canada to the west coast - thirteen hours of flying and about two hours of waiting.
So much more I regret not to have contacted you.
Jens

fernando · 22nd October 2015, 10:06 PM

Ah, the Niagara falls, the Royal Ontario Museum, the CN tower ... all fascinating

.

ariel · 22nd October 2015, 10:28 PM

Jens, I am located in Ann Arbor, a delightful college town 1 hour drive from Windsor, Ontario.
You are alway welcome.
On top of that, I can give you a long tour of all our local microbreweries:-)

Mercenary · 22nd October 2015, 10:39 PM

Ariel, I see you have some time. Be so kind answere my post #72 .

22nd October 2015, 08:09 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Having hijacked Mercenary's thread enough (my apologies ), I moved discussion of Akbar's weapons specifically, here: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20629 Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 22nd October 2015 at 08:24 PM.

22nd October 2015, 05:17 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jens, Simple answer is that I have no idea. A floral hilt on what we think of jamadhar with arm bars makes no sense. Like you say, we dont know if it was so. We have multiple terms in English translations apparently used interchangeably (katar, katara, khanjar, jamadhar, khapwa). We still don't know if the term referred to specific handle type, blade type, curvature, thickness, or entire ensemble. The use of these terms seems to have changed over time place. Maybe katara referred just to a narrow blade, slightly curved. Maybe not. Like most things, there were probably qualifiers to denote more specific uses (ex. slashing knife, stabbing knife, dagger, punch-dagger, etc...). Based on the sources at my disposal, my thinking was that the term phul-katara matched a dagger that has a narrow, piercing, slightly curved blade, and some form of major floral hilt. Could be jewelled or not. Ivory, or other material like jade/nephratite. Unless we go to the original texts and associate them with period illustrations, we know nothing Then again we have the Ain-i-Akbari in Urdu, and the Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri in Persian covering matters in the Mughal context. What do we have from the Rajputs? Emanuel

22nd October 2015, 06:11 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Emanuel, We dont have very much hiis early, and the drawings like the ones from Ani-Akbar would at best leave something to guessing. There is of course the description of the katar - katara/jamdhar/narsingh-moth. My guess is, that the Europeians choose one name for daggers with this kind of hilt - but this is purely guessing. The katars shown in the Akbar miniatures are clearly jamdahars, and I try to research this, as there is something funny/strange, but I am not prepared to discuss anything about it yet. A pity I did not contact you when I was in Toronto some years ago :-). Jens

22nd October 2015, 07:17 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	There are indeed some interesting things in those Akbar miniatures. I'm looking through the copies I found online and there is lots to extract and dissect. A pity indeed. Next time you come by our shores, please do drop a line Emanuel

22nd October 2015, 09:41 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I am sorry to say that it will not happend again - a trip to Canada. I found it fantastic - but I hated the time of flying to Canada and over Canada to the west coast - thirteen hours of flying and about two hours of waiting. So much more I regret not to have contacted you. Jens

22nd October 2015, 10:06 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ah, the Niagara falls, the Royal Ontario Museum, the CN tower ... all fascinating .

22nd October 2015, 10:28 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, I am located in Ann Arbor, a delightful college town 1 hour drive from Windsor, Ontario. You are alway welcome. On top of that, I can give you a long tour of all our local microbreweries:-)

22nd October 2015, 10:39 PM	#8
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Ariel, I see you have some time. Be so kind answere my post #72 .