On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

Emanuel · 21st October 2015, 03:11 PM

Hi Mercenary,

We are working from two different translations of Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri (Memoirs of Jahangir). Not having access to the original text and not having a linguistic background, I cannot say which one is more correct. The translation I used indicated that phul katara can sometimes be jeweled and sometimes not.

For the Ain-i-Akbari, I used the plate from Egerton. A katara is clearly labelled.

Thank you for the excellent pictures. To clarify I would consider the bottom 3 and rightmost examples in the attached images as phul katara. The top of the hilt is clearly floral, and matches the examples in Elgood closely. Elgood used the words "gourd", "seedpod","leaves","flowers". He also comments that such hilts can be found in ivory and nephrite in some numbers and were obviously fashionable throughout the Rajput courts until later 18th-19th centuries.

There is no need to be confrontational about this topic. It was merely pointed out to you that your proof that "phul-katara" meant "wootz blade" is problematic. You derived that understanding from the similarity between the words phul=flower, with phulad (also transliterated as phulad or fulad or pulad)=steel. Then you tried to argue the relevance of this association with the use of plants in crucible steel production.

Again, Ann Feuerbach and other academics on the topic of crucible steel presented good arguments for the etymology of the word pulad (also known as bulad or bulat in Central Asia) as derived from Sanskrit for "purified iron":
पूत "pu" लोह "auha/loha" = pure/clean/purified iron.

That's all.

Emanuel

Emanuel · 21st October 2015, 03:27 PM

Some more of what I think of as jewelled phul katara.

Emanuel · 21st October 2015, 04:25 PM

Since we have two versions of the plate from the Ain-i-Akbari here, I thought I would add another from Aziz, Abdul, Arms and jewellery of the Indian Mughuls, Lahore, 1947. Originally posted by Jens.

(1) Shamshir, (2) Khanda, (3-4) Gupti ‘asa and sheath, (5) Jamdhar, (6) Khanjar, (7) Jamkhak (according to Blockmann; name in plate therefore wrong), (8) Bank, (9) Janbwa (name in plate wrong again), (10) Narsingh-moth (so in Blochmann; in plate the name is pesh-qabz), (11) Katara, (12) Kaman (bow), (13) Takhsh-kaman (small bow) and arrow, (14) Tarkash (quiver), (15) Paikan-kash (arrow-drawer).

Of interest here is #11, Katara. It has a jamadhar handle, but the narrow piercing blade is important.

Jens Nordlunde · 21st October 2015, 05:02 PM

Emanuel,
I will not get mixed up in the discussion, but no 11 as you mention has the 'katar' hilt, a rather narrow blade - but it is curved.
The 'katars' seen in miniatures from Akbar's time look more like the one at the top.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 21st October 2015, 05:04 PM

Discussion here continues to be interesting, though mostly of course simply perspective on a well established conundrum in the study of arms which remains perplexing. The good thing here is bringing together various examples of the semantics and transliteration issues in trying to classify ethnographic weapons, and developing a kind of status quo.

As noted, the term 'name game' is concerning to some as it suggests a less than serious concern for the issue at hand. It is however, in my opinion, simply an idiomatic term used among individuals with regard to discussion of their common interests and not significant as far as an actual practice. The discussion and study are of course not a 'game' but it is a comfortable expression used among those engaged in focus on the topic at hand.

I think that in many cases where identification and classification of weapons where there is any notable variation or exception, there should be qualifying description added. This might include a note pertaining to other matters such as alternate terms or altered description, such as 'British infantry officers straight sabre of 1780, also often termed 'spadroon'.
An Indian katar (properly 'jamadhar') probably 18th century, N. India.
In this case, more a working caption, but not misleading or confusing.

The 'phul phactor' is here seen as a bit more 'colorful' (good one on the 'price list' Mercenary

I think the humor was missed as often the case). Here a bit more defined description might be necessary.

The idea of a compilation of weapon related terms in a glossary to be used as a cross reference is actually not a bad idea, and actually has been in degree well illustrated on this thread.
In some ways I think of some of the literature and Kiplingesque terms of the British Raj, and the use of Hobson-Jobson catalog of such terms as applied along with proper English and Indian terms.

Emanuel · 21st October 2015, 10:53 PM

Yes it seems like a lot of these daggers were more or less curved.

I just realized Jens, that you had posted a lovely plate from the Moser collection catalogue a long time ago.

Ultimately the name of these daggers is indeed a matter of semantics. The fact remains that they are marvellous things, regardless of what we call them

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd October 2015, 01:30 PM

Emanuel, in the Aziz book you mentioned the phul-katara, it is mentioned about ten times, here are a few quotes.

Page 9. "Among the articles presented by Nur Jahan to Prince Shah Jahan on Thursday, the 27 Mirh (Xii ruling year), were a waisy-band studded with pearls, a sword with jewelled shoulder belt (paradala) and a phul-katara."
Here the phul-katara stands alone, unlike in the other places where it is mentioned.

Page 97. "WhenShah Shuja was sent on the Deccan expedition (22 Safar, 1043) he received a spaccil robe of honour with gold-worked Nadiri, a jewelled khapwa with phul-katara, a jewelled sword....."

Page 143. "The Emperor bestoved on the bridegroom [Sultan Sulaiman Shukoh, te eldest sone of Dara Shukoh] a robe of honour........a jewelled jamdhar with phul-katara........."
The plate you show in your last mail is from the Moser catalogue 1912.
Lets say that phul-katara was the flowers like on the dagger in the midle. How can it then be explained that flowers like that can be placed on a jamdahar/katar? The only place I can think of, is chiselled on the blade, gilded and with gems inlaid. But we dont know if it was so.

In the plate you showed from Arms and Jewellery there are three 'katars'.
No 5. Jamdahar. Looking like most of the katars we know to day.
no 10. Narsingh-moth. Blade narrow and curved.
no 11. Katara. Side guards bend outwards, blade as broad as the ´hilt and curved.
Here is a quote from page 53-54. "The katar or Katara is a beautiful weapon with handle similar to thar of the jamdhar, but the blade is much narrower and longer, and is curved.
Irvin quotes the following from the translator of the Siyar: 'A poignard peculiar to India made with a hilt, whose two branches extend along the arm, so as to shelter the hand and part of the arm............ The total length is 2 or 2½ feet, one half of it being the blade." It is also mentioned in the text, no quoted, that the blade is very thick with two cutting edges, having a breadth of three inches at the hilt and a solid point of about one inch in breadth.
The description above sounds more like a jamdhar, than a description of the two others.
Maybe someone saw a katara, heard the name and forun that all daggers with such a hilt must have been named the same - or found it easier to do so.
Jens

Emanuel · 22nd October 2015, 05:17 PM

Hi Jens,

Simple answer is that I have no idea. A floral hilt on what we think of jamadhar with arm bars makes no sense.

Like you say, we dont know if it was so. We have multiple terms in English translations apparently used interchangeably (katar, katara, khanjar, jamadhar, khapwa). We still don't know if the term referred to specific handle type, blade type, curvature, thickness, or entire ensemble. The use of these terms seems to have changed over time place.

Maybe katara referred just to a narrow blade, slightly curved. Maybe not. Like most things, there were probably qualifiers to denote more specific uses (ex. slashing knife, stabbing knife, dagger, punch-dagger, etc...).

Based on the sources at my disposal, my thinking was that the term phul-katara matched a dagger that has a narrow, piercing, slightly curved blade, and some form of major floral hilt. Could be jewelled or not. Ivory, or other material like jade/nephratite.

Unless we go to the original texts and associate them with period illustrations, we know nothing

Then again we have the Ain-i-Akbari in Urdu, and the Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri in Persian covering matters in the Mughal context.

What do we have from the Rajputs?

Emanuel

Mercenary · 28th April 2016, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

[/i]Page 143. "The Emperor bestoved on the bridegroom [Sultan Sulaiman Shukoh, te eldest sone of Dara Shukoh][i] a robe of honour........a jewelled jamdhar with phul-katara........."

Lets say that phul-katara was the flowers like on the dagger in the midle. How can it then be explained that flowers like that can be placed on a jamdahar/katar? The only place I can think of, is chiselled on the blade, gilded and with gems inlaid. But we dont know if it was so.
Jens

Jamdhars with phul-katara:

21st October 2015, 03:27 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Some more of what I think of as jewelled phul katara. Attached Images

21st October 2015, 04:25 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Since we have two versions of the plate from the Ain-i-Akbari here, I thought I would add another from Aziz, Abdul, Arms and jewellery of the Indian Mughuls, Lahore, 1947. Originally posted by Jens. (1) Shamshir, (2) Khanda, (3-4) Gupti ‘asa and sheath, (5) Jamdhar, (6) Khanjar, (7) Jamkhak (according to Blockmann; name in plate therefore wrong), (8) Bank, (9) Janbwa (name in plate wrong again), (10) Narsingh-moth (so in Blochmann; in plate the name is pesh-qabz), (11) Katara, (12) Kaman (bow), (13) Takhsh-kaman (small bow) and arrow, (14) Tarkash (quiver), (15) Paikan-kash (arrow-drawer). Of interest here is #11, Katara. It has a jamadhar handle, but the narrow piercing blade is important. Attached Images

21st October 2015, 10:53 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Yes it seems like a lot of these daggers were more or less curved. I just realized Jens, that you had posted a lovely plate from the Moser collection catalogue a long time ago. Ultimately the name of these daggers is indeed a matter of semantics. The fact remains that they are marvellous things, regardless of what we call them Attached Images

22nd October 2015, 01:30 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Emanuel, in the Aziz book you mentioned the phul-katara, it is mentioned about ten times, here are a few quotes. Page 9. "Among the articles presented by Nur Jahan to Prince Shah Jahan on Thursday, the 27 Mirh (Xii ruling year), were a waisy-band studded with pearls, a sword with jewelled shoulder belt (paradala) and a phul-katara." Here the phul-katara stands alone, unlike in the other places where it is mentioned. Page 97. "WhenShah Shuja was sent on the Deccan expedition (22 Safar, 1043) he received a spaccil robe of honour with gold-worked Nadiri, a jewelled khapwa with phul-katara, a jewelled sword....." Page 143. "The Emperor bestoved on the bridegroom [Sultan Sulaiman Shukoh, te eldest sone of Dara Shukoh] a robe of honour........a jewelled jamdhar with phul-katara........." The plate you show in your last mail is from the Moser catalogue 1912. Lets say that phul-katara was the flowers like on the dagger in the midle. How can it then be explained that flowers like that can be placed on a jamdahar/katar? The only place I can think of, is chiselled on the blade, gilded and with gems inlaid. But we dont know if it was so. In the plate you showed from Arms and Jewellery there are three 'katars'. No 5. Jamdahar. Looking like most of the katars we know to day. no 10. Narsingh-moth. Blade narrow and curved. no 11. Katara. Side guards bend outwards, blade as broad as the ´hilt and curved. Here is a quote from page 53-54. "The katar or Katara is a beautiful weapon with handle similar to thar of the jamdhar, but the blade is much narrower and longer, and is curved. Irvin quotes the following from the translator of the Siyar: 'A poignard peculiar to India made with a hilt, whose two branches extend along the arm, so as to shelter the hand and part of the arm............ The total length is 2 or 2½ feet, one half of it being the blade." It is also mentioned in the text, no quoted, that the blade is very thick with two cutting edges, having a breadth of three inches at the hilt and a solid point of about one inch in breadth. The description above sounds more like a jamdhar, than a description of the two others. Maybe someone saw a katara, heard the name and forun that all daggers with such a hilt must have been named the same - or found it easier to do so. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 22nd October 2015 at 04:46 PM.

21st October 2015, 03:11 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Mercenary, We are working from two different translations of Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri (Memoirs of Jahangir). Not having access to the original text and not having a linguistic background, I cannot say which one is more correct. The translation I used indicated that phul katara can sometimes be jeweled and sometimes not. For the Ain-i-Akbari, I used the plate from Egerton. A katara is clearly labelled. Thank you for the excellent pictures. To clarify I would consider the bottom 3 and rightmost examples in the attached images as phul katara. The top of the hilt is clearly floral, and matches the examples in Elgood closely. Elgood used the words "gourd", "seedpod","leaves","flowers". He also comments that such hilts can be found in ivory and nephrite in some numbers and were obviously fashionable throughout the Rajput courts until later 18th-19th centuries. There is no need to be confrontational about this topic. It was merely pointed out to you that your proof that "phul-katara" meant "wootz blade" is problematic. You derived that understanding from the similarity between the words phul=flower, with phulad (also transliterated as phulad or fulad or pulad)=steel. Then you tried to argue the relevance of this association with the use of plants in crucible steel production. Again, Ann Feuerbach and other academics on the topic of crucible steel presented good arguments for the etymology of the word pulad (also known as bulad or bulat in Central Asia) as derived from Sanskrit for "purified iron": पूत "pu" लोह "auha/loha" = pure/clean/purified iron. That's all. Emanuel Attached Images Last edited by Emanuel; 21st October 2015 at 03:49 PM.

21st October 2015, 05:02 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Emanuel, I will not get mixed up in the discussion, but no 11 as you mention has the 'katar' hilt, a rather narrow blade - but it is curved. The 'katars' seen in miniatures from Akbar's time look more like the one at the top. Jens

21st October 2015, 05:04 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,277	Discussion here continues to be interesting, though mostly of course simply perspective on a well established conundrum in the study of arms which remains perplexing. The good thing here is bringing together various examples of the semantics and transliteration issues in trying to classify ethnographic weapons, and developing a kind of status quo. As noted, the term 'name game' is concerning to some as it suggests a less than serious concern for the issue at hand. It is however, in my opinion, simply an idiomatic term used among individuals with regard to discussion of their common interests and not significant as far as an actual practice. The discussion and study are of course not a 'game' but it is a comfortable expression used among those engaged in focus on the topic at hand. I think that in many cases where identification and classification of weapons where there is any notable variation or exception, there should be qualifying description added. This might include a note pertaining to other matters such as alternate terms or altered description, such as 'British infantry officers straight sabre of 1780, also often termed 'spadroon'. An Indian katar (properly 'jamadhar') probably 18th century, N. India. In this case, more a working caption, but not misleading or confusing. The 'phul phactor' is here seen as a bit more 'colorful' (good one on the 'price list' Mercenary I think the humor was missed as often the case). Here a bit more defined description might be necessary. The idea of a compilation of weapon related terms in a glossary to be used as a cross reference is actually not a bad idea, and actually has been in degree well illustrated on this thread. In some ways I think of some of the literature and Kiplingesque terms of the British Raj, and the use of Hobson-Jobson catalog of such terms as applied along with proper English and Indian terms.

22nd October 2015, 05:17 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jens, Simple answer is that I have no idea. A floral hilt on what we think of jamadhar with arm bars makes no sense. Like you say, we dont know if it was so. We have multiple terms in English translations apparently used interchangeably (katar, katara, khanjar, jamadhar, khapwa). We still don't know if the term referred to specific handle type, blade type, curvature, thickness, or entire ensemble. The use of these terms seems to have changed over time place. Maybe katara referred just to a narrow blade, slightly curved. Maybe not. Like most things, there were probably qualifiers to denote more specific uses (ex. slashing knife, stabbing knife, dagger, punch-dagger, etc...). Based on the sources at my disposal, my thinking was that the term phul-katara matched a dagger that has a narrow, piercing, slightly curved blade, and some form of major floral hilt. Could be jewelled or not. Ivory, or other material like jade/nephratite. Unless we go to the original texts and associate them with period illustrations, we know nothing Then again we have the Ain-i-Akbari in Urdu, and the Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri in Persian covering matters in the Mughal context. What do we have from the Rajputs? Emanuel