Kris question to the knowledgeables

Rick · 4th January 2006, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

If you think I was suggesting that the keris symbolises war and conflict then you have misunderstood my message.
The keris (in my opinion) symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces. Balance, Order, unity. Man and a number of other things. I dont think that one answer can be universally applied to all keris because as you know there is too much diversity for that. All I was trying to do is give some answers. I have not already made up my decision about the symbolism, I am open to ideas and would love to hear others ideas on the matter.

Have you read the two articles linked to in my post yet ?
Did you come into contact with the keris through silat ?

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 11:50 PM

Thanks Rick
I needed to read the links again too.
Some of the relationships are starting to fall into place regarding the Philippines as it related to the rest of ancient Southeast Asia, examples include an early written artifact dated from the 9th century in Luzon, to other Hindu statues traced to the 12th century and Ramayana versions in Mindanao. The study may show why "modern" keris motifs from an earlier period carry over into the kris origin with multiple designs on the same sword type.

Pusaka · 5th January 2006, 01:21 AM

I can see how a Keris could also be interpreted as a Naga. Actually it’s very interesting because if you remember what I said about the Tibetan Phurba also having the elephant and dragon motif there are some interesting findings. Tibet was heavily influenced by India as was Indonesia so could the Tibetan Phurba and the Indonesian Keris have developed from a Vedic Indian dagger?? The Tibetan Phurba its self represents a Naga as could the Keris. If you look at the photos of the Naga you will notice something very interesting, look at the posture. Back slightly bent, hands on stomach. In the case of a Naga the hands are usually holding a wish fulfilling jewel at the level of the navel. Same posture seen in Majapahit Keris. The upper body is human in likeness but the lower half is snake like. The bottom half could easily be a blade, straight or wavy. The early accounts of a blade with a human like handle could be Nagas. The fact that the blade is straight dose not mean that the dagger can not represent a Naga. What is interesting is that in Tibet they kept the blade straight but instead carved snakes on it. I think we will find the common source of both these blades in Vedic India. Note that the phurba is also sometimes made from Meteorite as is the Keris.

Rick · 5th January 2006, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I can see how a Keris could also be interpreted as a Naga. Actually it’s very interesting because if you remember what I said about the Tibetan Phurba also having the elephant and dragon motif there are some interesting findings. Tibet was heavily influenced by India as was Indonesia so could the Tibetan Phurba and the Indonesian Keris have developed from a Vedic Indian dagger?? The Tibetan Phurba its self represents a Naga as could the Keris. If you look at the photos of the Naga you will notice something very interesting, look at the posture. Back slightly bent, hands on stomach. In the case of a Naga the hands are usually holding a wish fulfilling jewel at the level of the navel. Same posture seen in Majapahit Keris. The upper body is human in likeness but the lower half is snake like. The bottom half could easily be a blade, straight or wavy. The early accounts of a blade with a human like handle could be Nagas. The fact that the blade is straight dose not mean that the dagger can not represent a Naga. What is interesting is that in Tibet they kept the blade straight but instead carved snakes on it. I think we will find the common source of both these blades in Vedic India. Note that the phurba is also sometimes made from Meteorite as is the Keris.

I guess you must have me on your ignore list .

You may construct any suit of clothes that you wish to fit this cultural icon Pusaka but it does not necessarily mean that they are the correct ones .

Pusaka · 5th January 2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I guess you must have me on your ignore list .

You may construct any suit of clothes that you wish to fit this cultural icon Pusaka but it does not necessarily mean that they are the correct ones .

No I am not ignoring you. I Read the first one and will read the second one later when I get the time. In the first article there is no real evidence to prove that wavy blades were not around at the same time. Straight keris blades have always been more common then wavy blades. It dose not surprise me that the accounts are only of straight blades, and not many accounts as you can see.
As I said such wavy blades did exist in Vedic India so when India warriors arrived in Indonesia they would have had such weapons, may not be common but dose not mean there were none. Indonesians have two blades, one for common every day use and pusaka. I dont see why it could not have been the same back then.
Yes I know that there are hypothesis but the truth is this information is lost so you either forget about the whole thing and dont try to even understand the symbolism or you do your best to work it out. Someone mentioned that I am mixing in my Western way of thinking; actually I have studied eastern philosophy for some time now and know that everything I have said fits with an Eastern way of thinking. As many have said the keris is many things to many people and they dont all agree.

Personally I think that the problem will be solved with a trip to the Museum archives. To find the common Indian ancestor of these blades. I will do so when I get the time.

Andrew · 5th January 2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

No I am not ignoring you. I Read the first one and will read the second one later when I get the time. In the first article there is no real evidence to prove that wavy blades were not around at the same time. Straight keris blades have always been more common then wavy blades. It dose not surprise me that the accounts are only of straight blades, and not many accounts as you can see.
As I said such wavy blades did exist in Vedic India so when India warriors arrived in Indonesia they would have had such weapons, may not be common but dose not mean there were none. Indonesians have two blades, one for common every day use and pusaka. I dont see why it could not have been the same back then.
Yes I know that there are hypothesis but the truth is this information is lost so you either forget about the whole thing and dont try to even understand the symbolism or you do your best to work it out. Someone mentioned that I am mixing in my Western way of thinking; actually I have studied eastern philosophy for some time now and know that everything I have said fits with an Eastern way of thinking. As many have said the keris is many things to many people and they dont all agree.

Personally I think that the problem will be solved with a trip to the Museum archives. To find the common Indian ancestor of these blades. I will do so when I get the time.

Pusaka,

I think you are missing the point here. I'm not a student of keris (or kris), and consequently have no "dog in this fight". Perhaps I can offer some objective advice.

It does not appear to me that anyone is dismissing your thoughts out of hand. On the contrary, you are bringing some interesting and thought-provoking ideas to the table.

The problem I percieve arises from your desire for definitive answers. Quite simply, those are not available right now.

Disagreements are inevitable when discussing these weapons and that's fine: I feel it stimulates and enriches a discussion. You may find your position is better recieved if you avoid couching it in absolute statements of fact.

Best,
Andrew

BSMStar · 5th January 2006, 07:19 PM

One of the greatest of human experiences is the search for truth and knowledge. Wisdom comes from in-depth knowledge, experience, and the ability to discern. The keris is shrouded in a thousand years of unrecorded change. From the first proto-keris that was traded, copied, modified, influenced by Hinduism, Islam, different kingdoms, regions and peoples… to the keris being made today, the only true constant for the keris… is change. The keris of today is richly immersed in culture and tradition that changes from location to location, shrouded in mysterious meaning and perhaps enhanced with mystical powers.

I am of the belief that in order to understand the keris and the origins of the keris, the secret is embedded with the people of the keris. To seek out examples of different keris from different times will still leave a mystery, a void… oh look, a new shape… why was that done, what does this mean? To know the people of the time, to know what they know… then will understanding be found. After all, isn’t that the purpose of this forum, to seek and share understanding?

I think this has been one of the most insightful threads, a small glimpse into the meaning of the ricikans. Thank you Antonio for starting this tread! And thank you Boedhi Adhitya for reminding us of the wisdom of our elders and to have the ears to listen.

nechesh · 5th January 2006, 05:28 PM

Pusaka, i honestly wish you the best of luck with your search. I also believe that this search should continue, though IMO nothing concrete will ever come out of it. But theories are a good thing to as long as we continue to understand them as such and not try to present them as fact. Not to discourage you, but keep in mind that a guy like Alan Maisey has been studying keris for 50 yrs. He apprenticed and was trained by one of the last great kraton empus and has dedicated his life to the study and understanding of keris. So when his research is inconclusive it is not for lack of searching.
Just so you understand, i don't dismiss all the theories you have put forth here and also believe, like you, that there is a strong Vedic connection to be found in the symbolism of the keris. As has been pointed out, one of the biggest problems in researching this stuff is that there are very few records to draw from on the origins of the keris. The culture has evolved greatly over the centuries and has gained much new symbolism over the years. As i stated before, this new symbolism is not invalid. It applies to the current culture. I doubt, for instance, that much of what Boedhi Adhitya layed out on the symbolism of the keris actually would apply in Mojopahit times, though some of it probably passed through over the centuries. It is, however, probably right on for those using the keris today as a tool for spiritual growth, and as such, completely valid. Don't stop looking, thinking and connecting. You might not always be right, but that, i am afraid, is the nature of this study.

Rick · 5th January 2006, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

Thanks Rick
I needed to read the links again too.
Some of the relationships are starting to fall into place regarding the Philippines as it related to the rest of ancient Southeast Asia, examples include an early written artifact dated from the 9th century in Luzon, to other Hindu statues traced to the 12th century and Ramayana versions in Mindanao. The study may show why "modern" keris motifs from an earlier period carry over into the kris origin with multiple designs on the same sword type.

You're welcome Mabagani , there is good fodder in those two pieces ; stuff that every person trying to understand the keris should read and refer back to on occasion .
Mr. Maisey is a virtual treasure trove of information and keris lore .

A half century of research and study cannot be just tossed aside .

5th January 2006, 01:21 AM	#3
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I can see how a Keris could also be interpreted as a Naga. Actually it’s very interesting because if you remember what I said about the Tibetan Phurba also having the elephant and dragon motif there are some interesting findings. Tibet was heavily influenced by India as was Indonesia so could the Tibetan Phurba and the Indonesian Keris have developed from a Vedic Indian dagger?? The Tibetan Phurba its self represents a Naga as could the Keris. If you look at the photos of the Naga you will notice something very interesting, look at the posture. Back slightly bent, hands on stomach. In the case of a Naga the hands are usually holding a wish fulfilling jewel at the level of the navel. Same posture seen in Majapahit Keris. The upper body is human in likeness but the lower half is snake like. The bottom half could easily be a blade, straight or wavy. The early accounts of a blade with a human like handle could be Nagas. The fact that the blade is straight dose not mean that the dagger can not represent a Naga. What is interesting is that in Tibet they kept the blade straight but instead carved snakes on it. I think we will find the common source of both these blades in Vedic India. Note that the phurba is also sometimes made from Meteorite as is the Keris. Attached Images

5th January 2006, 07:19 PM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	THANK YOU! One of the greatest of human experiences is the search for truth and knowledge. Wisdom comes from in-depth knowledge, experience, and the ability to discern. The keris is shrouded in a thousand years of unrecorded change. From the first proto-keris that was traded, copied, modified, influenced by Hinduism, Islam, different kingdoms, regions and peoples… to the keris being made today, the only true constant for the keris… is change. The keris of today is richly immersed in culture and tradition that changes from location to location, shrouded in mysterious meaning and perhaps enhanced with mystical powers. I am of the belief that in order to understand the keris and the origins of the keris, the secret is embedded with the people of the keris. To seek out examples of different keris from different times will still leave a mystery, a void… oh look, a new shape… why was that done, what does this mean? To know the people of the time, to know what they know… then will understanding be found. After all, isn’t that the purpose of this forum, to seek and share understanding? I think this has been one of the most insightful threads, a small glimpse into the meaning of the ricikans. Thank you Antonio for starting this tread! And thank you Boedhi Adhitya for reminding us of the wisdom of our elders and to have the ears to listen. Last edited by BSMStar; 5th January 2006 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Wording... doh

4th January 2006, 11:50 PM	#2
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Thanks Rick I needed to read the links again too. Some of the relationships are starting to fall into place regarding the Philippines as it related to the rest of ancient Southeast Asia, examples include an early written artifact dated from the 9th century in Luzon, to other Hindu statues traced to the 12th century and Ramayana versions in Mindanao. The study may show why "modern" keris motifs from an earlier period carry over into the kris origin with multiple designs on the same sword type.

5th January 2006, 05:28 PM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pusaka, i honestly wish you the best of luck with your search. I also believe that this search should continue, though IMO nothing concrete will ever come out of it. But theories are a good thing to as long as we continue to understand them as such and not try to present them as fact. Not to discourage you, but keep in mind that a guy like Alan Maisey has been studying keris for 50 yrs. He apprenticed and was trained by one of the last great kraton empus and has dedicated his life to the study and understanding of keris. So when his research is inconclusive it is not for lack of searching. Just so you understand, i don't dismiss all the theories you have put forth here and also believe, like you, that there is a strong Vedic connection to be found in the symbolism of the keris. As has been pointed out, one of the biggest problems in researching this stuff is that there are very few records to draw from on the origins of the keris. The culture has evolved greatly over the centuries and has gained much new symbolism over the years. As i stated before, this new symbolism is not invalid. It applies to the current culture. I doubt, for instance, that much of what Boedhi Adhitya layed out on the symbolism of the keris actually would apply in Mojopahit times, though some of it probably passed through over the centuries. It is, however, probably right on for those using the keris today as a tool for spiritual growth, and as such, completely valid. Don't stop looking, thinking and connecting. You might not always be right, but that, i am afraid, is the nature of this study.