Kris question to the knowledgeables

Pusaka · 4th January 2006, 05:51 PM

If we remember that Indra is a war god the elephant he rides is a battle elephant. War elephants often had headdresses attached to the head and trunk. These armour headdresses often had sharp spikes attached. This would explain the spikes on the Gajah as being an elephant armour headdress.

nechesh · 4th January 2006, 06:09 PM

Pusaka, i think you need to get your mode of thinking about the keris and it's significance out of the sphere of battles and war. Your martial thinking is not leading you to a proper understanding of the keris. Your concepts of "good vs. evil" are very western. Yes, the keris is in the form of an edged weapon, but it's significance goes deeper than that.

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 06:36 PM

On the contrary, one can't describe unity without leaving the field of unity, so there are guide posts or symbols to point the way which appear dualistic depending on the state of mind. too esoteric, pm

nechesh · 4th January 2006, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

On the contrary, one can't describe unity without leaving the field of unity, so there are guide posts or symbols to point the way which appear dualistic depending on the state of mind. too esoteric, pm

I am not questioning the dualistic approach per se as being too western, just the absolute B&W, good & evil understanding. Those who follow the cult of Kali are not necessarily "evil", they merely have a different perspective. Yes, it is esoteric and complex....

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 07:30 PM

Yes, and if everyone has the potential to reach truth, I would not expect every answer or path to be the same, or every keris/kris to fit into the same mold...its an open forum for minds to write freely

Rick · 4th January 2006, 06:38 PM

Please explain this ricikan and greneng with your vedic war elephant theory .
There are a fairly high percentage of keris that lack detail in the ricikan from Jawa and the Celebes ; I have even seen Moro kris with plain ricikan .

Pusaka · 4th January 2006, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Pusaka, i think you need to get your mode of thinking about the keris and it's significance out of the sphere of battles and war. Your martial thinking is not leading you to a proper understanding of the keris. Your concepts of "good vs. evil" are very western. Yes, the keris is in the form of an edged weapon, but it's significance goes deeper than that.

Ok since you seam to think that everything I have said is wrong then maybe you can correct me? Don’t give me the “I don’t know but I know your wrong” treatment because it’s not smart.

Andrew · 4th January 2006, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Ok since you seam to think that everything I have said is wrong then maybe you can correct me? Don’t give me the “I don’t know but I know your wrong” treatment because it’s not smart.

A fair request, Pusaka. But a bit defensive as phrased. Let's all take a breath and try to share information in a non-confrontational manner.

Thanks.

punal · 4th January 2006, 08:16 PM

You know guys, there's no place on earth where you can find a forum like this, it's breath taking! and I'm loving it every moment of it.
Please continue, it's very educational specially for a newbies like me.

Nice thread!

Rick · 4th January 2006, 08:31 PM

Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ?

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html

IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not .

I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell .

There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present .

nechesh · 4th January 2006, 09:15 PM

Thanks Rick, Alan's articles are a very good read and i get something more out of them everytime i read them.
Pusaka, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, but too much of it at once could kill a man.

I am not trying to be confrontational when i suggest you might be on the wrong track. I clearly stated at the beginning of this thread what my position is on this subject and the true difficulties that lie in the path of understanding the symbolism that may (or may not) lie behind the keris. Also, much time has already be devoted to this subject and you may find some answers in the archives. But as Mabagani points out, paths are different and could lead to different answers. You seem to want your answers in black & white and i am afraid it's not so cut and dry. You also seem to have already reached your own conclusions on the subject and i'm not so sure you would be open to my theories on the subject. I can tell you that i don't believe the symbolism of the keris is about war and conflict. I would highly recommend you read the articles which Rick has linked to (a few times really

) and draw your own conclusions.

BluErf · 5th January 2006, 01:55 PM

************************************************** ********
Rick Wrote:

Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ?

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html

IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not .

I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell .

There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present .
************************************************** ********

Just quoting Rick's post for the URLs.

Hey Pusaka, can't remember if I've welcomed you to the forum before, but just in case I haven't, welcome!

You have now experienced first-hand how controversial and emotionally-charged the keris discussions can get in this forum. Actually, I'd hazard that it's the same everywhere. Its the 'power' of keris, I guess.

You have many interesting ideas about the keris and you have a good ability to link images and symbols from different cultural settings, and draw connections between them, but what you are putting forth are hypotheses that have not been put through a rigorous academic/research process to substantiate them. And where it is a hypothesis, it may be good to state so, so that they are not taken as facts, especially by fellow members just starting out on the "Keris journey" (Yes, I liken collecting and studying Keris to an endless journey

).

The study of keris has been plagued by a serious lack of literature and historical records. In fact, many authors of the keris subject rely on 'informants' from this area (my home region - Southeast Asia - the proud home of the Keris and Kris!!

), who themselves learn about kerises from their elders or people around them. There is such a diversity of perceived meanings and names that it is impossible to say who is right or wrong. This phenomenon, like the myriad forms of kerises and krises, are a testament to the incredible diversity of this region. A feature or pamor of a keris can have one name in one village, and a different one in the next. And if you like, you could visit the Minang Kabau people in Central Sumatra. Just the number of keris hilt forms alone will bewilder anyone.

The keris has pre-Islamic origins, however, it is an interesting observation that it is mainly adopted in places where Islam took hold. Of course, we know about Bali and Lombok being Hinduistic and having the keris, but look at everywhere else - Java, Sumatra, Malay Peninsula, southern parts of Kalimantan, southern parts of Sulawesi, Moroland - its really kerises and krises being found in areas where the people are predominantly Muslim. Its not to say that kerises are Islamic in origin, but they are found where the Muslims are. And would a weapon adopted mostly in Muslim areas be called an Islamic weapon? I can't really say. It could be that the spread of the keris is not due to Islam, but because these areas happen to be on the major trade routes where both the keris and Religion could travel and reach. But I must admit this is my hypothesis.

And like what Rick and Vandoo has said -- the keris goes back a long time, and meanings and interpretations get changed, or even lost. One such example is the Jawa Demam hilt. It is representing a sick person, wearing a headdress (a 'tanjak'), squatting down, face lowered, with one arm wrapped around the body, holding a blanket over the other arm. We have seen examples that have carved 'eyes' at the tip of the head where the headdress is. The reason being that the headdress was re-interpreted as the nose, and therefore, the eyes must be beside it. Its just an example of people having lost the original understanding of what things meant.

You may be frustrated by the lack of straight answers, but this is the uncertainty you have to live with and deal with when studying and collecting the keris. Patience is very important. Good luck collecting, and keep learning.

4th January 2006, 05:51 PM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	If we remember that Indra is a war god the elephant he rides is a battle elephant. War elephants often had headdresses attached to the head and trunk. These armour headdresses often had sharp spikes attached. This would explain the spikes on the Gajah as being an elephant armour headdress. Attached Images

4th January 2006, 06:38 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Please explain this ricikan and greneng with your vedic war elephant theory . There are a fairly high percentage of keris that lack detail in the ricikan from Jawa and the Celebes ; I have even seen Moro kris with plain ricikan . Attached Images

4th January 2006, 08:31 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ? http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not . I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell . There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present . Last edited by Rick; 4th January 2006 at 08:53 PM.

4th January 2006, 06:09 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pusaka, i think you need to get your mode of thinking about the keris and it's significance out of the sphere of battles and war. Your martial thinking is not leading you to a proper understanding of the keris. Your concepts of "good vs. evil" are very western. Yes, the keris is in the form of an edged weapon, but it's significance goes deeper than that.

4th January 2006, 06:36 PM	#3
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	On the contrary, one can't describe unity without leaving the field of unity, so there are guide posts or symbols to point the way which appear dualistic depending on the state of mind. too esoteric, pm

4th January 2006, 07:30 PM	#5
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Yes, and if everyone has the potential to reach truth, I would not expect every answer or path to be the same, or every keris/kris to fit into the same mold...its an open forum for minds to write freely

4th January 2006, 08:16 PM	#9
punal Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 91	You know guys, there's no place on earth where you can find a forum like this, it's breath taking! and I'm loving it every moment of it. Please continue, it's very educational specially for a newbies like me. Nice thread!

4th January 2006, 09:15 PM	#11
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thanks Rick, Alan's articles are a very good read and i get something more out of them everytime i read them. Pusaka, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, but too much of it at once could kill a man. I am not trying to be confrontational when i suggest you might be on the wrong track. I clearly stated at the beginning of this thread what my position is on this subject and the true difficulties that lie in the path of understanding the symbolism that may (or may not) lie behind the keris. Also, much time has already be devoted to this subject and you may find some answers in the archives. But as Mabagani points out, paths are different and could lead to different answers. You seem to want your answers in black & white and i am afraid it's not so cut and dry. You also seem to have already reached your own conclusions on the subject and i'm not so sure you would be open to my theories on the subject. I can tell you that i don't believe the symbolism of the keris is about war and conflict. I would highly recommend you read the articles which Rick has linked to (a few times really ) and draw your own conclusions.

5th January 2006, 01:55 PM	#12
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	************************************************ **** Rick Wrote: Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ? http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not . I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell . There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present . ********************************************** ****** Just quoting Rick's post for the URLs. Hey Pusaka, can't remember if I've welcomed you to the forum before, but just in case I haven't, welcome! You have now experienced first-hand how controversial and emotionally-charged the keris discussions can get in this forum. Actually, I'd hazard that it's the same everywhere. Its the 'power' of keris, I guess. You have many interesting ideas about the keris and you have a good ability to link images and symbols from different cultural settings, and draw connections between them, but what you are putting forth are hypotheses that have not been put through a rigorous academic/research process to substantiate them. And where it is a hypothesis, it may be good to state so, so that they are not taken as facts, especially by fellow members just starting out on the "Keris journey" (Yes, I liken collecting and studying Keris to an endless journey ). The study of keris has been plagued by a serious lack of literature and historical records. In fact, many authors of the keris subject rely on 'informants' from this area (my home region - Southeast Asia - the proud home of the Keris and Kris!! ), who themselves learn about kerises from their elders or people around them. There is such a diversity of perceived meanings and names that it is impossible to say who is right or wrong. This phenomenon, like the myriad forms of kerises and krises, are a testament to the incredible diversity of this region. A feature or pamor of a keris can have one name in one village, and a different one in the next. And if you like, you could visit the Minang Kabau people in Central Sumatra. Just the number of keris hilt forms alone will bewilder anyone. The keris has pre-Islamic origins, however, it is an interesting observation that it is mainly adopted in places where Islam took hold. Of course, we know about Bali and Lombok being Hinduistic and having the keris, but look at everywhere else - Java, Sumatra, Malay Peninsula, southern parts of Kalimantan, southern parts of Sulawesi, Moroland - its really kerises and krises being found in areas where the people are predominantly Muslim. Its not to say that kerises are Islamic in origin, but they are found where the Muslims are. And would a weapon adopted mostly in Muslim areas be called an Islamic weapon? I can't really say. It could be that the spread of the keris is not due to Islam, but because these areas happen to be on the major trade routes where both the keris and Religion could travel and reach. But I must admit this is my hypothesis. And like what Rick and Vandoo has said -- the keris goes back a long time, and meanings and interpretations get changed, or even lost. One such example is the Jawa Demam hilt. It is representing a sick person, wearing a headdress (a 'tanjak'), squatting down, face lowered, with one arm wrapped around the body, holding a blanket over the other arm. We have seen examples that have carved 'eyes' at the tip of the head where the headdress is. The reason being that the headdress was re-interpreted as the nose, and therefore, the eyes must be beside it. Its just an example of people having lost the original understanding of what things meant. You may be frustrated by the lack of straight answers, but this is the uncertainty you have to live with and deal with when studying and collecting the keris. Patience is very important. Good luck collecting, and keep learning.