On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

Jens Nordlunde · 14th October 2015, 09:46 PM

Mercenary,
I think you have got it all wrong.
You dont know what Robert showed me. It was a manuscript of about 500 pages, and it had nothing top do with his new book on the Jaipur collection.
Maybe I am not too bright, but wait to say so till you can prove it.
Jens

Mercenary · 14th October 2015, 10:17 PM

Jens
I am sorry I was thinking about pictures from Jaipur museum where depicted all of types of weapons that were in Jaipur armory. With their names.
It is a pity that we know nothing about a manuscript with over names of weapons. Science requires openness. I am sorry.

Emanuel · 14th October 2015, 10:49 PM

Hi Mercenary,

My comment was concerning the similarity between the sound of the words. You presented a dissection of phauladi (fulad, pulad) as originating from "phul"-flower. Other researchers dissected it to the roots "pu" "lauha" - purified iron, which is a close description of crucible steel.

On the phul-katara, Elgood includes a few lovely examples in his catalogue of the Jaipur Court. They all have floral hilts. This fits the definition of "phul"-flower.
So phul-katara just refers to a dagger with floral hilt.

Cheers!
Emanuel

Mercenary · 15th October 2015, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Hi Mercenary,
Other researchers dissected it to the roots "pu" "lauha" - purified iron, which is a close description of crucible steel.

There is a problem. Neither Jahangir nor Abdul Aziz nor present-day sekligarhs whose grandfathers and great-grandfathers (who worked in the court armories still) never read the articles of "other researchers" or some researchers else or any Internet forums )). They just say "fauladi". That is all.
You know what Indians added to the crucibles with the iron? What was considered as a secret? If you know, then you will understand why a crucible steel was called "flower steel", "fruit steel". It was magic for Indians then.

Mercenary · 15th October 2015, 12:46 PM

Ok. No need to read my article or to study sources or to go to India to learn something. Let's play a game. A small equation with one unknown for primary schools:
[jeweled dagger WITH phull-katara] = [dagger decorated with gems] PLUS [X-blade].
It is known that dagger has gems (in which zone a dagger can has the gems?). And it is known that KATARA is a blade.
JEWELED DAGGER WITH SOME BLADE. And wherein "phul" relates to steel. Well?

Ian · 15th October 2015, 02:08 PM

Mercenary:

I'm having trouble following your comment here. Can you explain please.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Ok. No need to read my article or to study sources or to go to India to learn something. Let's play a game. A small equation with one unknown for primary schools:
[jeweled dagger WITH phull-katara] = [dagger decorated with gems] PLUS [X-blade].
It is known that dagger has gems (in which zone a dagger can has the gems?). And it is known that KATARA is a blade.
JEWELED DAGGER WITH SOME BLADE. And wherein "phul" relates to steel. Well?

Mercenary · 15th October 2015, 02:19 PM

Dear Ian

I am sorry for confusion. I meant following idea. In context the term "phul-katara" itself was used only once or twice. The most part of cases when it was used are within a sentences as "jeweled dagger WITH phul-katara" or "with costly phul-katara". If you analize the text it becomes clear that "phul-katara" could not be an independent kind of daggers. It refers to the quality of the blade.

ariel · 15th October 2015, 01:03 AM

AFAIK, pulad or pulad is just steel ( see al Kindi). Damascus steel ( wootz) is pulad-e johardar, or just Johar in Arabic ( see the Saudi Arabian book).
For some reasons, northern consumers of Indian/Persian wootz adopted an abbreviated version of the full definition and wootz became bulat etc.

Thus, IMHO, Indo-Persian terms Fulad/ pulad /phulad have nothing to do with wootz ( they may, in Russia or the Caucasus), and your Phul-katara is just a blade ( wootz or not), but with a flower for a pommel. As noted by Emanuel, see Elgood's book.
Phonetic and spelling similarities can play dirty games with non-specialists :
" a thief stole my wife's stole", " You might unleash your might" etc.

Anyone wants to correct me?

Jens Nordlunde · 16th October 2015, 04:45 PM

To my opinion the forum members interest in the subject is admirable, but I do find the criticism of Marcenary's idea a bit overdone.

Mercenary has come up with an idea. So let him work on it, and when it is done, and you still want to criticize it, you can do so – but I find it is a bit early to do so now.

Jens

15th October 2015, 02:19 PM	#7
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Dear Ian I am sorry for confusion. I meant following idea. In context the term "phul-katara" itself was used only once or twice. The most part of cases when it was used are within a sentences as "jeweled dagger WITH phul-katara" or "with costly phul-katara". If you analize the text it becomes clear that "phul-katara" could not be an independent kind of daggers. It refers to the quality of the blade. Last edited by Mercenary; 15th October 2015 at 02:38 PM.

14th October 2015, 09:46 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Mercenary, I think you have got it all wrong. You dont know what Robert showed me. It was a manuscript of about 500 pages, and it had nothing top do with his new book on the Jaipur collection. Maybe I am not too bright, but wait to say so till you can prove it. Jens

14th October 2015, 10:17 PM	#2
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Jens I am sorry I was thinking about pictures from Jaipur museum where depicted all of types of weapons that were in Jaipur armory. With their names. It is a pity that we know nothing about a manuscript with over names of weapons. Science requires openness. I am sorry.

14th October 2015, 10:49 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Mercenary, My comment was concerning the similarity between the sound of the words. You presented a dissection of phauladi (fulad, pulad) as originating from "phul"-flower. Other researchers dissected it to the roots "pu" "lauha" - purified iron, which is a close description of crucible steel. On the phul-katara, Elgood includes a few lovely examples in his catalogue of the Jaipur Court. They all have floral hilts. This fits the definition of "phul"-flower. So phul-katara just refers to a dagger with floral hilt. Cheers! Emanuel

15th October 2015, 12:46 PM	#5
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Ok. No need to read my article or to study sources or to go to India to learn something. Let's play a game. A small equation with one unknown for primary schools: [jeweled dagger WITH phull-katara] = [dagger decorated with gems] PLUS [X-blade]. It is known that dagger has gems (in which zone a dagger can has the gems?). And it is known that KATARA is a blade. JEWELED DAGGER WITH SOME BLADE. And wherein "phul" relates to steel. Well?

15th October 2015, 01:03 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	AFAIK, pulad or pulad is just steel ( see al Kindi). Damascus steel ( wootz) is pulad-e johardar, or just Johar in Arabic ( see the Saudi Arabian book). For some reasons, northern consumers of Indian/Persian wootz adopted an abbreviated version of the full definition and wootz became bulat etc. Thus, IMHO, Indo-Persian terms Fulad/ pulad /phulad have nothing to do with wootz ( they may, in Russia or the Caucasus), and your Phul-katara is just a blade ( wootz or not), but with a flower for a pommel. As noted by Emanuel, see Elgood's book. Phonetic and spelling similarities can play dirty games with non-specialists : " a thief stole my wife's stole", " You might unleash your might" etc. Anyone wants to correct me?

16th October 2015, 04:45 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	To my opinion the forum members interest in the subject is admirable, but I do find the criticism of Marcenary's idea a bit overdone. Mercenary has come up with an idea. So let him work on it, and when it is done, and you still want to criticize it, you can do so – but I find it is a bit early to do so now. Jens