Mid 18 th century Spanish military musket for ID.

Cerjak · 11th October 2015, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

While waiting for Cerjak's reply on the barrel length, I thought I would add some additional observations.

LOCK: This is a variation of the 1752, 55, or 57 Spanish Infantry musket lock. The Spanish used the Miquelet style lock till about 1750, changing to the French style lock. Then changing back to the Miquelet style lock about 1790, believing the Miquelet style lock being stronger and more reliable.
STOCK: The stock appears to be the French 1717 or 1728/46 pattern. Although the trigger and guard appear to be from a 1717 pattern. The butt plate...I'm not sure (?). The side plate is French from this pattern, and missing it's side mounted sling swivel.
FRONT BARREL BAND: While similar to the French band, this appears to be from a Spanish 1752 or 1755 Model, with the longer tail. The bands on the Spanish guns were changed to brass in 1757.
REAR AND MIDDLE BARREL BANDS: I believe these are both French, as the Spanish rear barrel band is different.

It will be interesting to know the barrel length of this gun. Also, if the gun was purchased in from the States (USA) ?
Rick.

Hi rick
Thank you for your imput.
The barrel lenght is 120 cm so more than the french mod1717.
This gun had been bought from France from a old collector who had bought it 1960.
I hope it will help for the identification

Best

Cerjak

rickystl · 11th October 2015, 03:43 PM

Hi Cerjak.
So, the barrel length is close to the French model, but with Spanish markings. Very interesting. Hmmmm.
So it appears you have a French 1717-1728 Model musket, with a Spanish 1752-1757 style lock, but with Spanish markings on the barrel. And it appears to have been made this way from a compilation of surplus parts, with Spanish surcharge markings on the barrel. Very neat and very interesting!!
The French barrels during this period were typically .69 or .72 caliber, where the Spanish barrels were .71 caliber. So both very close in bore size.
Rick.

rickystl · 11th October 2015, 03:59 PM

I hope the Moderator will allow the posting of a replica in this case, just to show a comparison.
Here is an exact replica of a Spanish 1757 infantry musket. The mounts were changed to brass in 1757. The 1752 and 1755 had the same mounts, but iron. The 1752 was supplied with a wood ramrod, while an iron ramrod was adopted in 1755. Otherwise, the guns looked the same.
Notice the Spanish musket looks very different. Including the screws on the butt plate resting above the plate instead of flush in typical Spanish fashion.
Rick.

rickystl · 11th October 2015, 04:00 PM

And the side plate...........

fernando · 11th October 2015, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

I hope the Moderator will allow the posting of a replica in this case, just to show a comparison...

Abslutely no problem Rick, even more with the purpose to support discussions. We just don't have as a goal in this sub-forum the opening of threads dedicated to replicas ... which is a different thing.

rickystl · 11th October 2015, 05:38 PM

Hi Fernando.
Thanks for your allowence in this case. And I agree, there are other Forums for replicas.
Actually, I've read that the Spanish (Under Phillip V who was a French decendant) updated the Model 1700 musket as early as 1718 with a French style lock similar to the French 1717 lock.
But it's interesting that in the mid 1700's that the miquelet lock was still a preference for civilian guns, and special order pistols for officers. And probably for any/all the reasons you mention above.

Cerjak's musket is the first French gun, with a Spanish lock and surchared barrel I've seen. Makes it super interesting from a historical gun perspective. Thanks again.
Rick.

Cerjak · 11th October 2015, 07:15 PM

Thank you very much to everybody Rick,Fernando K ,Fernando, I have now all the information needed and even more than expected about this riffle.
here some pictures for one with French style lock that I ‘ve already posted 3 years ago.
Overall 152 cm Barrel 110 cm
Cerjak

Fernando K · 11th October 2015, 10:29 PM

Hello

Two comments on what has sustained Ricky. The Spanish muskets, during the 18th century, followed the fashion of the lock to the French, in this case with some Spanish characteristics, the large ring on the screw that adjusts the jaws and striatum rake (Frizen) and recently in 1790 appears the lock of miquelete, although civilian weapons has been used long before. Remarkable is the absence of bridle into the bowl (pan)
Also, service weapon is owned by the Spanish crown, owned by the punch, REI. You can not be a French weapon.

It has not said anything about the method of carrying, the rings of gun carrier

Affectionately. Fernando K

Sorry for the translator

11th October 2015, 03:59 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	I hope the Moderator will allow the posting of a replica in this case, just to show a comparison. Here is an exact replica of a Spanish 1757 infantry musket. The mounts were changed to brass in 1757. The 1752 and 1755 had the same mounts, but iron. The 1752 was supplied with a wood ramrod, while an iron ramrod was adopted in 1755. Otherwise, the guns looked the same. Notice the Spanish musket looks very different. Including the screws on the butt plate resting above the plate instead of flush in typical Spanish fashion. Rick. Attached Images

11th October 2015, 04:00 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	And the side plate........... Attached Images

11th October 2015, 07:15 PM	#7
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Thank you very much to everybody Rick,Fernando K ,Fernando, I have now all the information needed and even more than expected about this riffle. here some pictures for one with French style lock that I ‘ve already posted 3 years ago. Overall 152 cm Barrel 110 cm Cerjak Attached Images

11th October 2015, 03:43 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Cerjak. So, the barrel length is close to the French model, but with Spanish markings. Very interesting. Hmmmm. So it appears you have a French 1717-1728 Model musket, with a Spanish 1752-1757 style lock, but with Spanish markings on the barrel. And it appears to have been made this way from a compilation of surplus parts, with Spanish surcharge markings on the barrel. Very neat and very interesting!! The French barrels during this period were typically .69 or .72 caliber, where the Spanish barrels were .71 caliber. So both very close in bore size. Rick.

11th October 2015, 05:38 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Fernando. Thanks for your allowence in this case. And I agree, there are other Forums for replicas. Actually, I've read that the Spanish (Under Phillip V who was a French decendant) updated the Model 1700 musket as early as 1718 with a French style lock similar to the French 1717 lock. But it's interesting that in the mid 1700's that the miquelet lock was still a preference for civilian guns, and special order pistols for officers. And probably for any/all the reasons you mention above. Cerjak's musket is the first French gun, with a Spanish lock and surchared barrel I've seen. Makes it super interesting from a historical gun perspective. Thanks again. Rick.

11th October 2015, 10:29 PM	#8
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello Two comments on what has sustained Ricky. The Spanish muskets, during the 18th century, followed the fashion of the lock to the French, in this case with some Spanish characteristics, the large ring on the screw that adjusts the jaws and striatum rake (Frizen) and recently in 1790 appears the lock of miquelete, although civilian weapons has been used long before. Remarkable is the absence of bridle into the bowl (pan) Also, service weapon is owned by the Spanish crown, owned by the punch, REI. You can not be a French weapon. It has not said anything about the method of carrying, the rings of gun carrier Affectionately. Fernando K Sorry for the translator