Mid 18 th century Spanish military musket for ID.

Cerjak · 10th October 2015, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Cerjak

Below the bread, says REI punch? (REY)

Fernando K

Dear Fernando,

Thank you very much for your inputs about Garate’s punch .
I have took some additional pictures this morning ( I have just received the parcel)
There is a similar Mark behind the barrel ( REX or REY or REI)
So it seems to be a Spanish service rifle with Spanish official punches But which model is it ?
I forgot to mentioned:
Do you have pictures for a similar model ?
Overall 160 cm and caliber around 18 mm
Best
Cerjak

Fernando K · 10th October 2015, 01:36 PM

Cerjak

For me, this is a copy of the French model of 1717 or 1728, for infantry. The rings for the gun holder (musquet) are on the left side, and rear ring was to be placed in the hole is the left side. Regarding the front ring I can not comment because I do not see from the left side of the weapon, which could be located.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Cerjak · 10th October 2015, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Cerjak

For me, this is a copy of the French model of 1717 or 1728, for infantry. The rings for the gun holder (musquet) are on the left side, and rear ring was to be placed in the hole is the left side. Regarding the front ring I can not comment because I do not see from the left side of the weapon, which could be located.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Yes Fernando well seen ,this rifle is inspired from the French model 1728 and also it is possible to mount the French bayonet mod 1728 on it .

Best

Cerjak

Shakethetrees · 10th October 2015, 09:28 PM

I believe it is 1750's. Form what I have found most Spanish military muskets in the 18th century carried Miquelet locks and had rings as the heads of their lock screws. This one has the ring.

The side plate is very French, as are the trigger guard and butt plate finial. Both are characteristics of late 17 th pre pattern military muskets from France.

The poor photos below are of a hybrid musket that was cobbled together from Spanish 1754 military muskets and some early Maastricht import musket parts by Godfroi Corbeau (sp) of that city.

From what I've read after this French style musket was issued, the troops using it were not too happy with it as they were more familiar with the Miquelet action.

I believe after this model was phased out Spain went back to the earlier, more familiar system.

rickystl · 11th October 2015, 01:06 PM

Hi Cerjak.
What an interesting musket. I believe I can add some information to this Thread if you let me know the length of the barrel ? The French barrels of this period were about 46.75 inches (118.745cm) and the Spanish barrels were about 43 inches (109.22cm).
Rick.

rickystl · 11th October 2015, 02:50 PM

While waiting for Cerjak's reply on the barrel length, I thought I would add some additional observations.

LOCK: This is a variation of the 1752, 55, or 57 Spanish Infantry musket lock. The Spanish used the Miquelet style lock till about 1750, changing to the French style lock. Then changing back to the Miquelet style lock about 1790, believing the Miquelet style lock being stronger and more reliable.
STOCK: The stock appears to be the French 1717 or 1728/46 pattern. Although the trigger and guard appear to be from a 1717 pattern. The butt plate...I'm not sure (?). The side plate is French from this pattern, and missing it's side mounted sling swivel.
FRONT BARREL BAND: While similar to the French band, this appears to be from a Spanish 1752 or 1755 Model, with the longer tail. The bands on the Spanish guns were changed to brass in 1757.
REAR AND MIDDLE BARREL BANDS: I believe these are both French, as the Spanish rear barrel band is different.

It will be interesting to know the barrel length of this gun. Also, if the gun was purchased in from the States (USA) ?
Rick.

Cerjak · 11th October 2015, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

While waiting for Cerjak's reply on the barrel length, I thought I would add some additional observations.

LOCK: This is a variation of the 1752, 55, or 57 Spanish Infantry musket lock. The Spanish used the Miquelet style lock till about 1750, changing to the French style lock. Then changing back to the Miquelet style lock about 1790, believing the Miquelet style lock being stronger and more reliable.
STOCK: The stock appears to be the French 1717 or 1728/46 pattern. Although the trigger and guard appear to be from a 1717 pattern. The butt plate...I'm not sure (?). The side plate is French from this pattern, and missing it's side mounted sling swivel.
FRONT BARREL BAND: While similar to the French band, this appears to be from a Spanish 1752 or 1755 Model, with the longer tail. The bands on the Spanish guns were changed to brass in 1757.
REAR AND MIDDLE BARREL BANDS: I believe these are both French, as the Spanish rear barrel band is different.

It will be interesting to know the barrel length of this gun. Also, if the gun was purchased in from the States (USA) ?
Rick.

Hi rick
Thank you for your imput.
The barrel lenght is 120 cm so more than the french mod1717.
This gun had been bought from France from a old collector who had bought it 1960.
I hope it will help for the identification

Best

Cerjak

fernando · 11th October 2015, 04:04 PM

Perhaps exceptions to both lock systems timeline are to be considered.
The musquet model aproved in 1717, which initiated the 'munition regulation', had a French style lock, 'imposed' by His Majesty. This lock, with continuous mechanic modifitations, kept in munitions models until 1789 when, as already noted, chnged to Miquelete by order of Carlos IV.
On the other hand the use of both lock styles had different paths, in either Royal Factories (Placencia) and private ones (the so called merchantia).
We can see in works by Juan Luis Calvó Pacual, the the picture of a Miquelete lock made around 1770, in the Catalonian variant, for the 'escopeta con bayoneta'.
Concerning preferences of either lock style, differences in perspective are recorded; rank men preferred the Miquelete style due to its easyness in cleaning and caring, whereas hose that were supposed to have better knowledge favoured the Miquelete because of its greater resistance and the advantage of visual access to its safe and shooting positions.
Other sources with a third perspective (stock makers?) claimed that the Miquelete was less controversial, as the carving for their insertion was not so deep and wood weakening.
Concerning the word REI on the barrel of the musket in discussion, this reassures it was Spanish King property.

10th October 2015, 09:28 PM	#4
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I believe it is 1750's. Form what I have found most Spanish military muskets in the 18th century carried Miquelet locks and had rings as the heads of their lock screws. This one has the ring. The side plate is very French, as are the trigger guard and butt plate finial. Both are characteristics of late 17 th pre pattern military muskets from France. The poor photos below are of a hybrid musket that was cobbled together from Spanish 1754 military muskets and some early Maastricht import musket parts by Godfroi Corbeau (sp) of that city. From what I've read after this French style musket was issued, the troops using it were not too happy with it as they were more familiar with the Miquelet action. I believe after this model was phased out Spain went back to the earlier, more familiar system. Attached Images

11th October 2015, 04:04 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A couple considerations Perhaps exceptions to both lock systems timeline are to be considered. The musquet model aproved in 1717, which initiated the 'munition regulation', had a French style lock, 'imposed' by His Majesty. This lock, with continuous mechanic modifitations, kept in munitions models until 1789 when, as already noted, chnged to Miquelete by order of Carlos IV. On the other hand the use of both lock styles had different paths, in either Royal Factories (Placencia) and private ones (the so called merchantia). We can see in works by Juan Luis Calvó Pacual, the the picture of a Miquelete lock made around 1770, in the Catalonian variant, for the 'escopeta con bayoneta'. Concerning preferences of either lock style, differences in perspective are recorded; rank men preferred the Miquelete style due to its easyness in cleaning and caring, whereas hose that were supposed to have better knowledge favoured the Miquelete because of its greater resistance and the advantage of visual access to its safe and shooting positions. Other sources with a third perspective (stock makers?) claimed that the Miquelete was less controversial, as the carving for their insertion was not so deep and wood weakening. Concerning the word REI on the barrel of the musket in discussion, this reassures it was Spanish King property.

10th October 2015, 01:36 PM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Cerjak For me, this is a copy of the French model of 1717 or 1728, for infantry. The rings for the gun holder (musquet) are on the left side, and rear ring was to be placed in the hole is the left side. Regarding the front ring I can not comment because I do not see from the left side of the weapon, which could be located. Affectionately. Fernando K

11th October 2015, 01:06 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Cerjak. What an interesting musket. I believe I can add some information to this Thread if you let me know the length of the barrel ? The French barrels of this period were about 46.75 inches (118.745cm) and the Spanish barrels were about 43 inches (109.22cm). Rick.

11th October 2015, 02:50 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	While waiting for Cerjak's reply on the barrel length, I thought I would add some additional observations. LOCK: This is a variation of the 1752, 55, or 57 Spanish Infantry musket lock. The Spanish used the Miquelet style lock till about 1750, changing to the French style lock. Then changing back to the Miquelet style lock about 1790, believing the Miquelet style lock being stronger and more reliable. STOCK: The stock appears to be the French 1717 or 1728/46 pattern. Although the trigger and guard appear to be from a 1717 pattern. The butt plate...I'm not sure (?). The side plate is French from this pattern, and missing it's side mounted sling swivel. FRONT BARREL BAND: While similar to the French band, this appears to be from a Spanish 1752 or 1755 Model, with the longer tail. The bands on the Spanish guns were changed to brass in 1757. REAR AND MIDDLE BARREL BANDS: I believe these are both French, as the Spanish rear barrel band is different. It will be interesting to know the barrel length of this gun. Also, if the gun was purchased in from the States (USA) ? Rick.