Kris question to the knowledgeables

Rick · 4th January 2006, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

One other thing I would like to draw your attention to is that the Keris handle although it has been defaced it still has the original symbolic meaning, A man slightly bent over, hands resting on his stomach in meditation.

There are myriad styles of ukiran ; I don't think this theory really holds water .

This form that you refer to is called Jawa Demam or fevered man .
What does this have to do with the original topic we are discussing here anyway ?

Let's get back on that topic , shall we .

VANDOO · 4th January 2006, 05:08 AM

THE QUESTION IS WHICH CAME FIRST THE KERIS OR THE KRIS, I THINK THE KERIS! THEN THE LARGER FORM KRIS EVOLVED FROM IT. DID IT EVOLVE TO A LARGER SIZE IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE ADVENT OF ISLAM OR AFTER.
I WOULD GUESS THE KRIS WAS THERE BEFORE ISLAM AS THE TAILSMAN CARVINGS ARE UNLIKE ANYTHING FOUND WHERE ISLAM STARTED AND THE BELIEFS WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE RELIGION. THE PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM WOULD HAVE KEPT SOME OF THEIR TRADITIONS ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MODIFIED BY THE NEW RELIGION AND LOST MANY OF THE MEANINGS THROUGH TIME.

AS IN MOST OCEANIC SOCIETYS THERE WERE PROBABLY VERY FEW IRON OR STEEL TOOLS OR WEAPONS IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE COMING OF THE HINDU ,ISLAM, CHRISTIAN SPANISH AND AMERICAN POWERS. ONLY THE TOP MEN IN AREAS WHERE FORIGN TRADERS CAME WERE LIKELY TO HAVE HAD THEM.
I SUSPECT THE MEANING OF THE ELEPHANT TRUNK AND OTHER CARVINGS WOULD BE MORE EASILY UNDERSTOOD BY GROUPS WHO HAVE NOT CHANGED RELIGION, CUSTOMS OR LIFE STYLE IF ANY SUCH GROUP EXHISTS. I DO THINK THAT THE HINDU BELIEFS AND ANSWERS PREDATE THE FULL DEVELOPMENT OF THE KRIS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST UNDER THE RULES OF ISLAM. THE WAY OF MAKEING KRIS WOULD HAVE CONTINUED AS THAT WAS THE TRADITIONAL WAY THEY HAD ALWAYS BEEN MADE AND WHAT MADE THEM SUCH GOOD WEAPONS. I HAVE ALSO NOTICED SOME DAYAK SWORDS RESEMBLE SOME USED BY THE NAGA TRIBES IN INDIA AND BURMA SO INFLUENCE DEFINITELY CAME INTO THE REGION AT A EARLY TIME.

DISCLAIMER (THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT WITH NO HARD FACTS TO BACK IT UP BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THE LOGICAL WAY FOR THINGS TO HAVE HAPPENED.) MENTIONING ONE RELIGION IS RISKY AND I HAVE MENTIONED THREE

I HOPE NO ONE TAKES OFFENCE AS NONE IS INTENDED.

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I WOULD GUESS THE KRIS WAS THERE BEFORE ISLAM AS THE TAILSMAN CARVINGS ARE UNLIKE ANYTHING FOUND WHERE ISLAM STARTED AND THE BELIEFS WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE RELIGION. THE PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM WOULD HAVE KEPT SOME OF THEIR TRADITIONS ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MODIFIED BY THE NEW RELIGION AND LOST MANY OF THE MEANINGS THROUGH TIME.

Not necessarily, the Moros practiced what was called "folk" Islam, meaning they intertwined early beliefs.
I'd agree the keris arrived in Philippines before Islam but not the kris, if it were true your timeline brings origins back a couple of centuries to before the mid 15th century? If I recall in a previous thread its rare or even unproven to find keris dated that early?
Eastern thought holds that true knowledge remains flexible, so I'll keep an open mind on this subject even if they don't fit into my own observations. It would be difficult to prove many of these opinions with concrete evidence like one would want, so many of the opinions are as good as any. Like you mentioned religion and faith can get sticky.
I've put out much of my ideas regarding the kris in this forum waiting to see how the next publication would mesh with my own study.

4th January 2006, 05:08 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE QUESTION IS WHICH CAME FIRST THE KERIS OR THE KRIS, I THINK THE KERIS! THEN THE LARGER FORM KRIS EVOLVED FROM IT. DID IT EVOLVE TO A LARGER SIZE IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE ADVENT OF ISLAM OR AFTER. I WOULD GUESS THE KRIS WAS THERE BEFORE ISLAM AS THE TAILSMAN CARVINGS ARE UNLIKE ANYTHING FOUND WHERE ISLAM STARTED AND THE BELIEFS WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE RELIGION. THE PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM WOULD HAVE KEPT SOME OF THEIR TRADITIONS ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MODIFIED BY THE NEW RELIGION AND LOST MANY OF THE MEANINGS THROUGH TIME. AS IN MOST OCEANIC SOCIETYS THERE WERE PROBABLY VERY FEW IRON OR STEEL TOOLS OR WEAPONS IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE COMING OF THE HINDU ,ISLAM, CHRISTIAN SPANISH AND AMERICAN POWERS. ONLY THE TOP MEN IN AREAS WHERE FORIGN TRADERS CAME WERE LIKELY TO HAVE HAD THEM. I SUSPECT THE MEANING OF THE ELEPHANT TRUNK AND OTHER CARVINGS WOULD BE MORE EASILY UNDERSTOOD BY GROUPS WHO HAVE NOT CHANGED RELIGION, CUSTOMS OR LIFE STYLE IF ANY SUCH GROUP EXHISTS. I DO THINK THAT THE HINDU BELIEFS AND ANSWERS PREDATE THE FULL DEVELOPMENT OF THE KRIS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST UNDER THE RULES OF ISLAM. THE WAY OF MAKEING KRIS WOULD HAVE CONTINUED AS THAT WAS THE TRADITIONAL WAY THEY HAD ALWAYS BEEN MADE AND WHAT MADE THEM SUCH GOOD WEAPONS. I HAVE ALSO NOTICED SOME DAYAK SWORDS RESEMBLE SOME USED BY THE NAGA TRIBES IN INDIA AND BURMA SO INFLUENCE DEFINITELY CAME INTO THE REGION AT A EARLY TIME. DISCLAIMER (THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT WITH NO HARD FACTS TO BACK IT UP BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THE LOGICAL WAY FOR THINGS TO HAVE HAPPENED.) MENTIONING ONE RELIGION IS RISKY AND I HAVE MENTIONED THREE I HOPE NO ONE TAKES OFFENCE AS NONE IS INTENDED.