Kris question to the knowledgeables

Pusaka · 3rd January 2006, 09:05 PM

Indra holding two wavy blade daggers which will later be developed into the Keris we all know today. The Keris has its roots in Vedic India and has nothing to do with Islam

MABAGANI · 3rd January 2006, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

The Keris has its roots in Vedic India and has nothing to do with Islam

Although the roots come from an earlier period the kris sword has its origins with Islam. This partly explains why when the archaic kris formed there were variations in the trunk/naga/bird motif while there was uniformity in the sword shape as it transitions from keris to kris.

Pusaka · 3rd January 2006, 10:23 PM

I totally disagree that the keris is an Islamic weapon. All the evidence points towards Vedic India and none of it points toward Islam. If it really was introduced into Indonesia with the coming of Islam then show us the proof of those statements. Show us the wavy blade weapon in its native country before it was introduced. Such wavy blade weapons existed in Vedic times in India and that’s where it came from.

People try and say that Silat is an Islamic Martial art too when it actually existed in Indonesia LONG before the coming of Islam as did the keris. I say the same if Silat is really an Islamic martial art then lets see it in its native country, dose it exist there, no. So what dose that tell you???

Rick · 3rd January 2006, 11:01 PM

Pusaka , I believe that Mabagani is referring to the KRIS *sword* of the Muslim Philippines .

Here we spell the two forms differently .

nechesh · 3rd January 2006, 11:13 PM

Pusaka, it would do you well to stop....breathe....read.....and comprehend what someone has said before you respond.

Mabagani is referring to the Moro KRIS, not the Indonesian KERIS, when he speaks of Islamic roots in it's development. I don't think anyone here would argue that the keris did not exist in pre-Islamic Indonesia.
The weapon which started this thread is a Moro KRIS. At this forum we tend to distinguish between this and it's Indonesian cousin through spelling differences. The Indonesian KERIS dagger and the Moro KRIS sword.
BTW, a wavy blade does not a keris make. The blades Indra holds in the pic you posted do not have the characteristics that make a blade a keris. Actually the first keris were, indeed, straight blades, so this pic really proves nothing.
I must confess, i really don't know enough about silat to be too sure of it's origins, but it has been my understanding that it is a relatively recent form. Can you show any ancient accounts to prove otherwise. I know plenty of modern Wiccans who like to think they are practicing the "old religion" when it is basically the invention of Gerald Gardner (also an avid keris collector) in the early 20thC. And Rosicrusions love to point to their ancient Egyptian heritage when their lodges probably developed out of 18thC mystical thinking and masonry. So do we have any real evidence that Silat is more than a couple of hundred years old?

Federico · 3rd January 2006, 11:44 PM

Not much to add, I agree with Mabagani's points (whats new).

Though I would add, to add even more confusion to the mix (again whats new), there is a strong possibility that meaning has changed over time. Eg. when the keris first began to shift into the kris perhaps there was one meaning (eg. elephant and dragon), but in later kris perhaps the meaning has changed. Particularly since there are many forms of fretwork that are not dragon-esque or curly or etc...

Pusaka · 3rd January 2006, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

Not much to add, I agree with Mabagani's points (whats new).

Though I would add, to add even more confusion to the mix (again whats new), there is a strong possibility that meaning has changed over time. Eg. when the keris first began to shift into the kris perhaps there was one meaning (eg. elephant and dragon), but in later kris perhaps the meaning has changed. Particularly since there are many forms of fretwork that are not dragon-esque or curly or etc...

Yes its meaning has changed from what it was originally meant to convey but I was talking more about it original meaning. Actually I’m not sure changed is the correct word, I would say lost.

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 12:12 AM

No problem Pusaka, your insights regarding the keris are enlightening and help me with perspective.

We all know the martial arts originated with the homosapiens domination over the neanderthal or was that alien intervention too.lol

btw who practices any form of silat here? i for one.

Pusaka · 3rd January 2006, 11:45 PM

I’m sorry If I misunderstood what was being said but I have to say that I have heard people say that the Indonesian Keris is an Islamic Weapon too, so I was eager to clear that up because I really don’t believe that.

About Silat its not recent but If you want to discuss that I don’t think this is the correct place to do that. There are lots of Martial arts forums where you could do that, I think you may know of one

If you take everything into account you will now see that the Keris blade symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces, the creative and destructive, the Male and Female,
The blade waves back and forth between these two opposite poles a bit like a battle taking place one trying to overcome the other. This is what my research has lead me to personally believe but I accept that lots has been lost over time. If anyone else has any other Idea about what it symbolically represents I would love to hear it.

nechesh · 4th January 2006, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

About Silat its not recent but If you want to discuss that I don’t think this is the correct place to do that. There are lots of Martial arts forums where you could do that, I think you may know of one

If you take everything into account you will now see that the Keris blade symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces, the creative and destructive, the Male and Female,
The blade waves back and forth between these two opposite poles a bit like a battle taking place one trying to overcome the other.

I just need to point out again Pusaka, that the original keris form is NOT the wavy blade of which you speak, but a straight one. In fact most keris are straight (perhaps 2 in 3), so this back and forth dualist explanation doesn't really fly.
I think that as long as you are tying the keris and it's origins in with silat then this a a very appropriate place to discuss the origins of silat. I personally think the keris is much older than silat and that forms of keris fighting that are taught in silat are relatively new. So i wonder if there is any written evidence (old manuals, mention in old texts, etc.) that can make the connection between silat and the keris in ancient times.

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 12:37 AM

Some Silat historians make the connection by citing ancient ruins with warrior carvings and fighting postures, also ancient tales about origins of combat forms. I'll have to read more carefully again for specifics about the keris and silat. Some of the carvings look like a straight edged weapons btw, early keris?

3rd January 2006, 09:05 PM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Indra holding two wavy blade daggers which will later be developed into the Keris we all know today. The Keris has its roots in Vedic India and has nothing to do with Islam Attached Images

3rd January 2006, 10:23 PM	#3
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I totally disagree that the keris is an Islamic weapon. All the evidence points towards Vedic India and none of it points toward Islam. If it really was introduced into Indonesia with the coming of Islam then show us the proof of those statements. Show us the wavy blade weapon in its native country before it was introduced. Such wavy blade weapons existed in Vedic times in India and that’s where it came from. People try and say that Silat is an Islamic Martial art too when it actually existed in Indonesia LONG before the coming of Islam as did the keris. I say the same if Silat is really an Islamic martial art then lets see it in its native country, dose it exist there, no. So what dose that tell you??? Last edited by Pusaka; 3rd January 2006 at 10:36 PM.

3rd January 2006, 11:01 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Pusaka , I believe that Mabagani is referring to the KRIS sword of the Muslim Philippines . Here we spell the two forms differently .

3rd January 2006, 11:13 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pusaka, it would do you well to stop....breathe....read.....and comprehend what someone has said before you respond. Mabagani is referring to the Moro KRIS, not the Indonesian KERIS, when he speaks of Islamic roots in it's development. I don't think anyone here would argue that the keris did not exist in pre-Islamic Indonesia. The weapon which started this thread is a Moro KRIS. At this forum we tend to distinguish between this and it's Indonesian cousin through spelling differences. The Indonesian KERIS dagger and the Moro KRIS sword. BTW, a wavy blade does not a keris make. The blades Indra holds in the pic you posted do not have the characteristics that make a blade a keris. Actually the first keris were, indeed, straight blades, so this pic really proves nothing. I must confess, i really don't know enough about silat to be too sure of it's origins, but it has been my understanding that it is a relatively recent form. Can you show any ancient accounts to prove otherwise. I know plenty of modern Wiccans who like to think they are practicing the "old religion" when it is basically the invention of Gerald Gardner (also an avid keris collector) in the early 20thC. And Rosicrusions love to point to their ancient Egyptian heritage when their lodges probably developed out of 18thC mystical thinking and masonry. So do we have any real evidence that Silat is more than a couple of hundred years old?

3rd January 2006, 11:44 PM	#6
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Not much to add, I agree with Mabagani's points (whats new). Though I would add, to add even more confusion to the mix (again whats new), there is a strong possibility that meaning has changed over time. Eg. when the keris first began to shift into the kris perhaps there was one meaning (eg. elephant and dragon), but in later kris perhaps the meaning has changed. Particularly since there are many forms of fretwork that are not dragon-esque or curly or etc...

4th January 2006, 12:12 AM	#8
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	No problem Pusaka, your insights regarding the keris are enlightening and help me with perspective. We all know the martial arts originated with the homosapiens domination over the neanderthal or was that alien intervention too.lol btw who practices any form of silat here? i for one.

3rd January 2006, 11:45 PM	#9
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I’m sorry If I misunderstood what was being said but I have to say that I have heard people say that the Indonesian Keris is an Islamic Weapon too, so I was eager to clear that up because I really don’t believe that. About Silat its not recent but If you want to discuss that I don’t think this is the correct place to do that. There are lots of Martial arts forums where you could do that, I think you may know of one If you take everything into account you will now see that the Keris blade symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces, the creative and destructive, the Male and Female, The blade waves back and forth between these two opposite poles a bit like a battle taking place one trying to overcome the other. This is what my research has lead me to personally believe but I accept that lots has been lost over time. If anyone else has any other Idea about what it symbolically represents I would love to hear it.

4th January 2006, 12:37 AM	#11
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Some Silat historians make the connection by citing ancient ruins with warrior carvings and fighting postures, also ancient tales about origins of combat forms. I'll have to read more carefully again for specifics about the keris and silat. Some of the carvings look like a straight edged weapons btw, early keris?