Kris question to the knowledgeables

Pusaka · 3rd January 2006, 06:44 PM

I believe that left and right flanks of the keris represent order and chaos (elephant/indra and dragon/Vrtra) actually I have heard people referring to the structure opposite from the elephant as the dragon. What is interesting though is the specific numerology of these components.

Pusaka · 3rd January 2006, 07:07 PM

Edited your photo to explain the idea

Battara · 3rd January 2006, 08:17 PM

Now that I understand the question better (I think

) there are certainly talismanic properties to the animal heads, like the elephant that I have seen on many Tausug kris at the base, or like the one you posted which I would say is Maranao looking and more of an eagle. I also agree that there may be a Vedic/Indic origin for the elephant whose meaning goes might be traced back to the Majapahit era (and Indian trade). The eagle may also be similar, like symbolizing originally Garuda, although now perhaps more for the sea eagle in the Philippines. My speculations at present.

MABAGANI · 3rd January 2006, 08:26 PM

Thanks keris "knowledgeables" for your insights, I asked on a previous thread for keris experts opinions on the relationships of the different Malay Sultanate keris.
The kris forms vary from elephant, snake, serpent, naga, dragon, crocodile, sarimanok, eagle, parrot and other birds, etc. all motifs specific or mythological.
Pusaka pointed out many of the early Indian/Hindu connections, which raises the question did the keris arrive in Mindanao and Sulu earlier than the Malay Muslim missionaries. A study of the language, beliefs and history show the Hindu culture in the Philippines centuries before Islam so why not the keris? Maybe some answers are in the study of the earlier culture and some more prior interrelated with the coming of Islam.
An example of the early Hindu connection show on the Maranao kris which resemble an elephant on one side vs. the serpent/bird and serpent, the Maranao were the last to convert to Islam and still held to many early beliefs.
I've seen the Sulu kris vary from naga to bird possibly also indicating they may have been made in different periods.

nechesh · 3rd January 2006, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I believe that left and right flanks of the keris represent order and chaos (elephant/indra and dragon/Vrtra) actually I have heard people referring to the structure opposite from the elephant as the dragon. What is interesting though is the specific numerology of these components.

This is exactly what i mean. I don't believe you will find any basis for these ideas in any ancient writings and in all probability none of this was intented in the origin of the keris......However, like any system this does not make it invalid if it works for you within the context of the system. Many interesting ideas will no doubt come out of our silat friends on this subject, but we need to keep in mind that these ideas are relatively new and probably have nothing what-so-ever to do with the origins of the keris form. But if it works for you, run with it.

Tim Simmons · 3rd January 2006, 08:36 PM

Whats that smell? Fantasy

sorry

Pusaka · 3rd January 2006, 09:05 PM

Indra holding two wavy blade daggers which will later be developed into the Keris we all know today. The Keris has its roots in Vedic India and has nothing to do with Islam

MABAGANI · 3rd January 2006, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

The Keris has its roots in Vedic India and has nothing to do with Islam

Although the roots come from an earlier period the kris sword has its origins with Islam. This partly explains why when the archaic kris formed there were variations in the trunk/naga/bird motif while there was uniformity in the sword shape as it transitions from keris to kris.

Pusaka · 3rd January 2006, 10:23 PM

I totally disagree that the keris is an Islamic weapon. All the evidence points towards Vedic India and none of it points toward Islam. If it really was introduced into Indonesia with the coming of Islam then show us the proof of those statements. Show us the wavy blade weapon in its native country before it was introduced. Such wavy blade weapons existed in Vedic times in India and that’s where it came from.

People try and say that Silat is an Islamic Martial art too when it actually existed in Indonesia LONG before the coming of Islam as did the keris. I say the same if Silat is really an Islamic martial art then lets see it in its native country, dose it exist there, no. So what dose that tell you???

Rick · 3rd January 2006, 11:01 PM

Pusaka , I believe that Mabagani is referring to the KRIS *sword* of the Muslim Philippines .

Here we spell the two forms differently .

nechesh · 3rd January 2006, 11:13 PM

Pusaka, it would do you well to stop....breathe....read.....and comprehend what someone has said before you respond.

Mabagani is referring to the Moro KRIS, not the Indonesian KERIS, when he speaks of Islamic roots in it's development. I don't think anyone here would argue that the keris did not exist in pre-Islamic Indonesia.
The weapon which started this thread is a Moro KRIS. At this forum we tend to distinguish between this and it's Indonesian cousin through spelling differences. The Indonesian KERIS dagger and the Moro KRIS sword.
BTW, a wavy blade does not a keris make. The blades Indra holds in the pic you posted do not have the characteristics that make a blade a keris. Actually the first keris were, indeed, straight blades, so this pic really proves nothing.
I must confess, i really don't know enough about silat to be too sure of it's origins, but it has been my understanding that it is a relatively recent form. Can you show any ancient accounts to prove otherwise. I know plenty of modern Wiccans who like to think they are practicing the "old religion" when it is basically the invention of Gerald Gardner (also an avid keris collector) in the early 20thC. And Rosicrusions love to point to their ancient Egyptian heritage when their lodges probably developed out of 18thC mystical thinking and masonry. So do we have any real evidence that Silat is more than a couple of hundred years old?

3rd January 2006, 07:07 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Edited your photo to explain the idea Attached Images Last edited by Pusaka; 3rd January 2006 at 11:04 PM.

3rd January 2006, 09:05 PM	#7
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Indra holding two wavy blade daggers which will later be developed into the Keris we all know today. The Keris has its roots in Vedic India and has nothing to do with Islam Attached Images

3rd January 2006, 10:23 PM	#9
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I totally disagree that the keris is an Islamic weapon. All the evidence points towards Vedic India and none of it points toward Islam. If it really was introduced into Indonesia with the coming of Islam then show us the proof of those statements. Show us the wavy blade weapon in its native country before it was introduced. Such wavy blade weapons existed in Vedic times in India and that’s where it came from. People try and say that Silat is an Islamic Martial art too when it actually existed in Indonesia LONG before the coming of Islam as did the keris. I say the same if Silat is really an Islamic martial art then lets see it in its native country, dose it exist there, no. So what dose that tell you??? Last edited by Pusaka; 3rd January 2006 at 10:36 PM.

3rd January 2006, 06:44 PM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I believe that left and right flanks of the keris represent order and chaos (elephant/indra and dragon/Vrtra) actually I have heard people referring to the structure opposite from the elephant as the dragon. What is interesting though is the specific numerology of these components.

3rd January 2006, 08:17 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Now that I understand the question better (I think ) there are certainly talismanic properties to the animal heads, like the elephant that I have seen on many Tausug kris at the base, or like the one you posted which I would say is Maranao looking and more of an eagle. I also agree that there may be a Vedic/Indic origin for the elephant whose meaning goes might be traced back to the Majapahit era (and Indian trade). The eagle may also be similar, like symbolizing originally Garuda, although now perhaps more for the sea eagle in the Philippines. My speculations at present.

3rd January 2006, 08:26 PM	#4
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Thanks keris "knowledgeables" for your insights, I asked on a previous thread for keris experts opinions on the relationships of the different Malay Sultanate keris. The kris forms vary from elephant, snake, serpent, naga, dragon, crocodile, sarimanok, eagle, parrot and other birds, etc. all motifs specific or mythological. Pusaka pointed out many of the early Indian/Hindu connections, which raises the question did the keris arrive in Mindanao and Sulu earlier than the Malay Muslim missionaries. A study of the language, beliefs and history show the Hindu culture in the Philippines centuries before Islam so why not the keris? Maybe some answers are in the study of the earlier culture and some more prior interrelated with the coming of Islam. An example of the early Hindu connection show on the Maranao kris which resemble an elephant on one side vs. the serpent/bird and serpent, the Maranao were the last to convert to Islam and still held to many early beliefs. I've seen the Sulu kris vary from naga to bird possibly also indicating they may have been made in different periods.

3rd January 2006, 08:36 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Whats that smell? Fantasy sorry

3rd January 2006, 11:01 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Pusaka , I believe that Mabagani is referring to the KRIS sword of the Muslim Philippines . Here we spell the two forms differently .

3rd January 2006, 11:13 PM	#11
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pusaka, it would do you well to stop....breathe....read.....and comprehend what someone has said before you respond. Mabagani is referring to the Moro KRIS, not the Indonesian KERIS, when he speaks of Islamic roots in it's development. I don't think anyone here would argue that the keris did not exist in pre-Islamic Indonesia. The weapon which started this thread is a Moro KRIS. At this forum we tend to distinguish between this and it's Indonesian cousin through spelling differences. The Indonesian KERIS dagger and the Moro KRIS sword. BTW, a wavy blade does not a keris make. The blades Indra holds in the pic you posted do not have the characteristics that make a blade a keris. Actually the first keris were, indeed, straight blades, so this pic really proves nothing. I must confess, i really don't know enough about silat to be too sure of it's origins, but it has been my understanding that it is a relatively recent form. Can you show any ancient accounts to prove otherwise. I know plenty of modern Wiccans who like to think they are practicing the "old religion" when it is basically the invention of Gerald Gardner (also an avid keris collector) in the early 20thC. And Rosicrusions love to point to their ancient Egyptian heritage when their lodges probably developed out of 18thC mystical thinking and masonry. So do we have any real evidence that Silat is more than a couple of hundred years old?