African knights - African armour collection thread

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Sometimes researchers cannot find exactly what they are searching for... Sometimes they do. My advice is to keep looking and perhaps gain the e mail address of one of the survivors of Wilkinson Sword...if you feel it is of absolute importance in this regard. Frankly I don't think it is... There is a lot of material worth looking at and you can meanwhile pencil the chain mail suits into the margin for later...

Meanwhile I continue to observe the development of this interesting thread and I am particularly interested how Arab involvement altered or became adapted into African style.

It occurred to me that rather than rigid regimental armoured cavalry and armoured infantry units that African tribal grouping fell into and out of uniform armour at a whim...that instead it was rather transient as a concept both because of the heat...and local traditions....while the thick cloth or material style was preferred over the heavy metal. That is not to say they never used armour..It has been shown that they occasionally did...although they certainly preferred a shield in the traditional sense which is after all an armoured concept.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A close up of the cloth armour; From Pinterest; Sudanese quilted armor. Armor for horse and rider displayed in the British Museum were captured from the army of Mahdi Muhammad Ahmad ibn ‘Abd Allah (Battle of Omdurman,1898), cotton stuffed with kapok, loosely quilted horizontally and firmly quilted vertically. L:134 cm, W:131 cm, suggesting the sleeves are probably 3/4 length. the long length and high central vent is consistent with a cavalryman’s armor.
The small picture showing how best to get out of ones armoured shirt...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Sometimes researchers cannot find exactly what they are searching for... Sometimes they do. My advice is to keep looking and perhaps gain the e mail address of one of the survivors of Wilkinson Sword...if you feel it is of absolute importance in this regard. Frankly I don't think it is... There is a lot of material worth looking at and you can meanwhile pencil the chain mail suits into the margin for later...

Meanwhile I continue to observe the development of this interesting thread and I am particularly interested how Arab involvement altered or became adapted into African style.

It occurred to me that rather than rigid regimental armoured cavalry and armoured infantry units that African tribal grouping fell into and out of uniform armour at a whim...that instead it was rather transient as a concept both because of the heat...and local traditions....while the thick cloth or material style was preferred over the heavy metal. That is not to say they never used armour..It has been shown that they occasionally did...although they certainly preferred a shield in the traditional sense which is after all an armoured concept.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Occasionally I have to write to myself !... I was reviewing the few publications on things about African Armour and discovered a book by Christopher Spring curator at the British Museum...see below.

One account from a reader indicates...Quote" AFRICAN ARMS AND ARMOUR not only talk about the weapons, but it also provides many excellent historical accounts of the weapons in use throughout history. It was fascinating to learn that African weapons were not restricted to just spears and hide shields like many may believe today, but they also had as wide a variety of weapons as could be found anywhere in the world, complete with swords, bows, cavalry, and even armor. This is a good book to read for not only weapons enthusiasts, but also history buffs". Unquote.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Ibrahiim, I should probably have worded my comment differently, I think we are just not understanding each other, the references were dead ends in the matter of were the Khedives armor was made and who made it, I know that you were just presenting some additional references, and the excellent research you put into your posts is much appreciated by me.

As for the Hicks expedition, here is an interesting print that shows the diverse and motley crew of soldiers cobbled together in an ill fated attempt to deal with the Mahdi.

Left to right, Albanian Bashi Bazouk (Infantry), Kurd (Cavalry), Sudanese Regular, Bosnian Bashi Bazouk (Infantry), Syrian Bashi Bazouk, Egyptian Cuirssier, in Shirt of Mail, with Pot Helmet and LInked Hood Similar to that Worn by the Saracens of Saladia. Greek Bashi Bazouk from the Turkish Provences, Fella or Regular Egyptian Infantryman, Segir of the Dromedary (camel) Scouting Corps, and Segir or Arab from the Country between Shendy and Dongala.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ibrahiim, I should probably have worded my comment differently, I think we are just not understanding each other, the references were dead ends in the matter of were the Khedives armor was made and who made it, I know that you were just presenting some additional references, and the excellent research you put into your posts is much appreciated by me.

As for the Hicks expedition, here is an interesting print that shows the diverse and motley crew of soldiers cobbled together in an ill fated attempt to deal with the Mahdi.

Salaams estcrh, I have no problem with this at all... Occasionally different people use different techniques to open these Pandoras box problems... Most people have trouble following the rapid twists and turns of a web that is crashing along at exponential rates of knowledge/detail intake. The picture you show of the Hicks soldiers is remarkable and probably one of those sketches for the London Times...Probably by the time that report was printed ...most of that huge expedition were dead....!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

This continues to be s most fascinating thread, and I very much admire the gentlemanly exchange in discussing differences in opinion and perspective, case in point Wikipedia and the more recent web phenomenon, Pininterest.
Like most everything, these kinds of venues serve well for many, and of course in varying cases and degrees.
As always, they are only as effective as those who proactively contribute to them, and can be most useful if the material presented is accurately and effectively entered.

I must reiterate, to me online resources are usually quite valuable, but as even with published resources the best policy is to recheck and confirm sources and cites. As noted, many of these references in these online venues are dated, improperly quoted and poorly cited. While their 'benchmark' standing remains, it becomes even more essential to continue research and confirmation.

The book "African Knights" sounds fascinating and I have ordered it!
"African Arms and Armour" has been a keystone in my African references for nearly two decades! and has always served me well. In the concurrent thread on throwing knives, after searching through a good number of esoteric reference sources, I found most of what I sought in 'Spring' (which most of us use to term this now venerable source).

Excellent thread!!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

More on African Armour...Mahdist undergarments etc used in the Hicks Massacre and at Omdurman ...

[eftihis]

Here are closer photos of the mail. I have seen one similar described as Ottoman.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by eftihis

Here are closer photos of the mail. I have seen one similar described as Ottoman.

Very nice images, it certainly is not Indian mail. I would say either Ottoman or Persian, either way you did good on these, I seem to remember they sold for a rather low price. Do you have a weight and or measurement.