Basket hilted swords

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2015, 01:59 PM

Ibrahiim,
Thank you so much for always adding these interesting and astute observations and especially these remarkably pertinent links!
These additions perfectly illustrate that researching these weapons and the intriguing elements of their unique histories often involves forays into most unexpected and obscure sources.
These are the kinds of details which truly add to the dimension of our understanding and appreciation of these arms!

Best regards,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th September 2015, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim,
Thank you so much for always adding these interesting and astute observations and especially these remarkably pertinent links!
These additions perfectly illustrate that researching these weapons and the intriguing elements of their unique histories often involves forays into most unexpected and obscure sources.
These are the kinds of details which truly add to the dimension of our understanding and appreciation of these arms!

Best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim, It is a pleasure to take part albeit as a virtual observer in this masterclass originated by Cathey. Your input is an enormous inspiration to all Forum members especially those who enjoy, as I do, the potential for research ...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Cathey · 20th September 2015, 04:59 AM

Hi Guys

I have posted one of my three Black Watch pattern baskets early in this thread, so I will now post the remaining two, starting with this one.

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Overall Length: 92.2 cm (36.3 inches)
Blade length: 76.4 cm (30.1 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.121 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13.3 cm (5.2 inches)
Inside grip length: 11.3 cm (4.4 inches)
Marks, etc: The Pommel is marked with an F over 20

Description
English basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1760 with 30.2” blade 76.5 cm. Overall Length 36 ¾ “ 93.3 cm. A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, straight single edged fullered blade. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an F over 20) with spherical button, wire bound leather grip.

This hilt is typical of those manufactured by Dru Drury Sr, London, however as the blade is unsigned this cannot be confirmed. Whilst this pattern of basket hilt is usually regarded as having been produced by Jeffery’s or Dury, it is probable that Jeffery’s and Drury sub-contracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their London Workshops utilizing their own grips and grip coverings.

If anyone has any thoughts on what the F over 20 signifies on the pommel I would be most grateful.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341
DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s & pp142 plate 241.S
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd September 2015, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I have posted one of my three Black Watch pattern baskets early in this thread, so I will now post the remaining two, starting with this one.

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Overall Length: 92.2 cm (36.3 inches)
Blade length: 76.4 cm (30.1 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.121 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13.3 cm (5.2 inches)
Inside grip length: 11.3 cm (4.4 inches)
Marks, etc: The Pommel is marked with an F over 20

Description
English basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1760 with 30.2” blade 76.5 cm. Overall Length 36 ¾ “ 93.3 cm. A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, straight single edged fullered blade. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an F over 20) with spherical button, wire bound leather grip.

This hilt is typical of those manufactured by Dru Drury Sr, London, however as the blade is unsigned this cannot be confirmed. Whilst this pattern of basket hilt is usually regarded as having been produced by Jeffery’s or Dury, it is probable that Jeffery’s and Drury sub-contracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their London Workshops utilizing their own grips and grip coverings.

If anyone has any thoughts on what the F over 20 signifies on the pommel I would be most grateful.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341
DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s & pp142 plate 241.S
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Salaams Cathey, May I ask is the letter an F or could it be an E ?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2015, 06:44 PM

It seems I have seen these kind of letter/number inscriptions on others of these British basket hilts. Naturally my inclination would be that it would likely be a rack number as these were to other ranks. While it is a thought to possibly be production number or maker/vendor number as these components were outsourced usually, I doubt something in lots like pommels would be so marked.

This military pattern is of course most interesting, and the producers named are the most typically seen. I have seen these hilts with what appeared to be a M1788 light cavalry sabre blade, and wonder how these might have been issued in the latter 18th century with curved blade.
Flank company perhaps?
Eljay, any thoughts?

ulfberth · 1st October 2015, 02:57 PM

Hello all,

a friend of mine send me this picture of a basket hilt, around 1m total Length and the blade around 3,5 CM wide.
That's al info I got, found in France, the hilt does not look familiar to me, any thoughts anyone ?

Thanks beforehand

Ulfberth

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2015, 10:44 PM

This is a most interesting example Ulfberth!
In addressing the hilt alone as the single image is all there is to go on, it has a most 'garrison' look to it, that is much like something for other ranks in the Scottish units of the British army. All appearances are to around third quarter of 18th as these 'tall cone' pommels seem to be closest to (G7, Mazansky). In Mazansky (p.147) there is an example with this type pommel c.1770, and it has the same rudimentary feel to the seemingly 'mechanical' looking piercing and decorative motif in the guards.

The placement of a grommet like open disc in the guard on this example seems to recall these kinds of open discs in the example referenced.
What is most curious is the odd 'shield' like piercing in one guard (loosely recalling Mazansky, family B , iii).

While this is stated provenance from France, there does not seem to be any reason to assume this was used by French forces, nor expatriate Scots of any diaspora post Culloden. As noted this hilt seems far later in the century than the 1746 Culloden event, and a hilt probably intended for British army regiment use would not have likely been in France.......not unless this was something from the Napoleonic campaigns.

I cannot find an exact match, but the style of the work recalling the piercing of Scottish hilts, but in a more austere manner, seems to fall into the kind of regimental manner of the Jeffries/Drury type hilts of that 18th century period.

With any luck, we might have the opinion of Eljay, whose experience with these kinds of swords is well established.

20th September 2015, 04:59 AM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment Hi Guys I have posted one of my three Black Watch pattern baskets early in this thread, so I will now post the remaining two, starting with this one. Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century) Overall Length: 92.2 cm (36.3 inches) Blade length: 76.4 cm (30.1 inches) Blade widest point: 3.121 cm (1.2 inches) Hilt widest point: 13.3 cm (5.2 inches) Inside grip length: 11.3 cm (4.4 inches) Marks, etc: The Pommel is marked with an F over 20 Description English basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1760 with 30.2” blade 76.5 cm. Overall Length 36 ¾ “ 93.3 cm. A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, straight single edged fullered blade. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an F over 20) with spherical button, wire bound leather grip. This hilt is typical of those manufactured by Dru Drury Sr, London, however as the blade is unsigned this cannot be confirmed. Whilst this pattern of basket hilt is usually regarded as having been produced by Jeffery’s or Dury, it is probable that Jeffery’s and Drury sub-contracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their London Workshops utilizing their own grips and grip coverings. If anyone has any thoughts on what the F over 20 signifies on the pommel I would be most grateful. References: BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341 DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784 NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s & pp142 plate 241.S Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100 Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

1st October 2015, 02:57 PM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 424	Hello all, a friend of mine send me this picture of a basket hilt, around 1m total Length and the blade around 3,5 CM wide. That's al info I got, found in France, the hilt does not look familiar to me, any thoughts anyone ? Thanks beforehand Ulfberth Attached Images

16th September 2015, 01:59 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Ibrahiim, Thank you so much for always adding these interesting and astute observations and especially these remarkably pertinent links! These additions perfectly illustrate that researching these weapons and the intriguing elements of their unique histories often involves forays into most unexpected and obscure sources. These are the kinds of details which truly add to the dimension of our understanding and appreciation of these arms! Best regards, Jim

22nd September 2015, 06:44 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	It seems I have seen these kind of letter/number inscriptions on others of these British basket hilts. Naturally my inclination would be that it would likely be a rack number as these were to other ranks. While it is a thought to possibly be production number or maker/vendor number as these components were outsourced usually, I doubt something in lots like pommels would be so marked. This military pattern is of course most interesting, and the producers named are the most typically seen. I have seen these hilts with what appeared to be a M1788 light cavalry sabre blade, and wonder how these might have been issued in the latter 18th century with curved blade. Flank company perhaps? Eljay, any thoughts?

1st October 2015, 10:44 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This is a most interesting example Ulfberth! In addressing the hilt alone as the single image is all there is to go on, it has a most 'garrison' look to it, that is much like something for other ranks in the Scottish units of the British army. All appearances are to around third quarter of 18th as these 'tall cone' pommels seem to be closest to (G7, Mazansky). In Mazansky (p.147) there is an example with this type pommel c.1770, and it has the same rudimentary feel to the seemingly 'mechanical' looking piercing and decorative motif in the guards. The placement of a grommet like open disc in the guard on this example seems to recall these kinds of open discs in the example referenced. What is most curious is the odd 'shield' like piercing in one guard (loosely recalling Mazansky, family B , iii). While this is stated provenance from France, there does not seem to be any reason to assume this was used by French forces, nor expatriate Scots of any diaspora post Culloden. As noted this hilt seems far later in the century than the 1746 Culloden event, and a hilt probably intended for British army regiment use would not have likely been in France.......not unless this was something from the Napoleonic campaigns. I cannot find an exact match, but the style of the work recalling the piercing of Scottish hilts, but in a more austere manner, seems to fall into the kind of regimental manner of the Jeffries/Drury type hilts of that 18th century period. With any luck, we might have the opinion of Eljay, whose experience with these kinds of swords is well established.