Interesting Barong

archaeologist · 8th September 2015, 10:16 PM

Nice barong. People seem to agree it had coins, but do you really want to "restore" it that way? Makes it look nicer, I agree, but coins are dated, so now you will have added iffy date information to the piece. Even if you were sure of the original date, and got coins that matched, and even knowing that coins on an artifact can be added at any time in its life.
I say this because one of my frustrations collecting such things is the total lack of history on most of them, which would tell us so much about their story. The most you usually get when you ask the seller is "I bought it from Mr. Y who had it for years" which obviously tells you nothing much you want to know.
I'm not trying to attack anyone here, but I wish everyone would keep better records of where and when and who from, and keep them WITH the artifact, and pass that (and researched info) on to the next owner.
Cheers,
John

drac2k · 10th September 2015, 12:57 AM

What you have stated has a lot of merit and I do understand your view, however since I am going to keep this piece, I will replace the missing coins ; I look at it as restoring a piece of art.If I do sell it, I'll advise the new owner of what I have done.

VANDOO · 10th September 2015, 04:25 AM

WHILE IT WOULD BE VERY DESIRABLE AND NICE TO HAVE THE HISTORY WITH THESE OBJECTS IN MOST CASES THAT SHIP HAS SAILED LONG AGO.

WHAT THIS BARONG TELLS US IS THE POSSIBLE ORIGINS OF THE BLADE AND THAT A LATER NON MORO HANDLE FOUND ITS WAY ONTO THE BLADE AT SOME POINT. IT IS LIKELY THE SILVER COINS WERE REMOVED AND LATER SPENT WHEN THE BARONG CHANGED HANDS.
ADDING COINS DOES INTERFERE WITH THE POSSIBLE UNKNOWN DATE AND WILL SUPPLY A DATE THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE CORRECT, BUT IT WILL RESTORE THE ITEM AND IMPROVE ITS LOOKS. IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THE COLLECTOR TO MAKE HIS CHOICES AND HOPEFULLY TO PASS DOWN ANY CHANGES MADE AND ACCURATE INFORMATION HE MAY HAVE WHEN THE ITEMS MOVE ON. THOUGH WE HAVE LOST SO MUCH HISTORY ON MOST ITEMS WE HAVE EXCHANGED IT FOR THE UNKNOWN MYSTERY'S WE PONDER. WELCOME TO THE FORUM

Robert · 10th September 2015, 06:07 AM

Hello Barry, While I agree with most everything you just pointed I do not believe that adding coins will interfere with dating this piece in any way. We have no idea whether the coins would have been new ones or old ones when they were added to the hilt. Even if the original coins used were still present they really cannot be relied on as any indicator of age as this piece could have just as easily been made earlier or later than the coins themselves.

Best,
Robert

drac2k · 10th September 2015, 01:25 PM

In regards to using a pair of 20 centavo silver coins, I thought I would get some dated between 1903 and 1917 ; I realize that this would be purely subjective, so maybe a pair of silver medallions would be less chronologically misleading,however in all probability ,less factually correct.
Then, do we ask ourselves, should we retip a broken sword , take out nicks from a blade, wrap a handle ,etc.; should a beautiful fresco or oil painting be restored, when we don't even know the composition of the original paints or all of the techniques the artist used.
We should never change the original item, but we have an obligation to preserve it while it is in our care.

Sajen · 11th September 2015, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

In regards to using a pair of 20 centavo silver coins, I thought I would get some dated between 1903 and 1917 ; I realize that this would be purely subjective, so maybe a pair of silver medallions would be less chronologically misleading,however in all probability ,less factually correct.
Then, do we ask ourselves, should we retip a broken sword , take out nicks from a blade, wrap a handle ,etc.; should a beautiful fresco or oil painting be restored, when we don't even know the composition of the original paints or all of the techniques the artist used.
We should never change the original item, but we have an obligation to preserve it while it is in our care.

Agree with you!

Ian · 11th September 2015, 07:21 AM

Hi drac2k:

Your barung obviously has a lot of Moro features. The scabbard looks Tausug. The hilt, however, is probably from one of the Lumad tribes of Mindanao. The small "ears" reflect what was probably a Visayan influence originally, but are quite popular with the Tagakaolu (living in the vicinity of Davao City), who are culturally part of the Bagobo peoples, the Bagobo themselves, or possibly from groups in Agusan del sur. I have a number of these shaped pommels, some with Filipino coins, with a variety of blades. These hilts appear on kris, small kampilan, sabers, and various bolo forms, but I don't recall seeing such a hilt on a barung before.

Ian.

drac2k · 11th September 2015, 12:03 PM

Have you or anyone else previously posted "these shaped pommels, " on the forum, that you can direct me to the link; so that it can be a point of reference for my blade.
It is interesting that this hilt is unusual for a barong, but I guess, unlike our modern "throw away," culture , everything was utilized; if you had a perfectly good handle and your barong needed one , there was the quick fix.

8th September 2015, 10:16 PM	#1
archaeologist Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3	Do you really want to add coins? Nice barong. People seem to agree it had coins, but do you really want to "restore" it that way? Makes it look nicer, I agree, but coins are dated, so now you will have added iffy date information to the piece. Even if you were sure of the original date, and got coins that matched, and even knowing that coins on an artifact can be added at any time in its life. I say this because one of my frustrations collecting such things is the total lack of history on most of them, which would tell us so much about their story. The most you usually get when you ask the seller is "I bought it from Mr. Y who had it for years" which obviously tells you nothing much you want to know. I'm not trying to attack anyone here, but I wish everyone would keep better records of where and when and who from, and keep them WITH the artifact, and pass that (and researched info) on to the next owner. Cheers, John

10th September 2015, 12:57 AM	#2
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,258	What you have stated has a lot of merit and I do understand your view, however since I am going to keep this piece, I will replace the missing coins ; I look at it as restoring a piece of art.If I do sell it, I'll advise the new owner of what I have done.

10th September 2015, 04:25 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WHILE IT WOULD BE VERY DESIRABLE AND NICE TO HAVE THE HISTORY WITH THESE OBJECTS IN MOST CASES THAT SHIP HAS SAILED LONG AGO. WHAT THIS BARONG TELLS US IS THE POSSIBLE ORIGINS OF THE BLADE AND THAT A LATER NON MORO HANDLE FOUND ITS WAY ONTO THE BLADE AT SOME POINT. IT IS LIKELY THE SILVER COINS WERE REMOVED AND LATER SPENT WHEN THE BARONG CHANGED HANDS. ADDING COINS DOES INTERFERE WITH THE POSSIBLE UNKNOWN DATE AND WILL SUPPLY A DATE THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE CORRECT, BUT IT WILL RESTORE THE ITEM AND IMPROVE ITS LOOKS. IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THE COLLECTOR TO MAKE HIS CHOICES AND HOPEFULLY TO PASS DOWN ANY CHANGES MADE AND ACCURATE INFORMATION HE MAY HAVE WHEN THE ITEMS MOVE ON. THOUGH WE HAVE LOST SO MUCH HISTORY ON MOST ITEMS WE HAVE EXCHANGED IT FOR THE UNKNOWN MYSTERY'S WE PONDER. WELCOME TO THE FORUM

10th September 2015, 06:07 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Barry, While I agree with most everything you just pointed I do not believe that adding coins will interfere with dating this piece in any way. We have no idea whether the coins would have been new ones or old ones when they were added to the hilt. Even if the original coins used were still present they really cannot be relied on as any indicator of age as this piece could have just as easily been made earlier or later than the coins themselves. Best, Robert

10th September 2015, 01:25 PM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,258	In regards to using a pair of 20 centavo silver coins, I thought I would get some dated between 1903 and 1917 ; I realize that this would be purely subjective, so maybe a pair of silver medallions would be less chronologically misleading,however in all probability ,less factually correct. Then, do we ask ourselves, should we retip a broken sword , take out nicks from a blade, wrap a handle ,etc.; should a beautiful fresco or oil painting be restored, when we don't even know the composition of the original paints or all of the techniques the artist used. We should never change the original item, but we have an obligation to preserve it while it is in our care.

11th September 2015, 07:21 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Hi drac2k: Your barung obviously has a lot of Moro features. The scabbard looks Tausug. The hilt, however, is probably from one of the Lumad tribes of Mindanao. The small "ears" reflect what was probably a Visayan influence originally, but are quite popular with the Tagakaolu (living in the vicinity of Davao City), who are culturally part of the Bagobo peoples, the Bagobo themselves, or possibly from groups in Agusan del sur. I have a number of these shaped pommels, some with Filipino coins, with a variety of blades. These hilts appear on kris, small kampilan, sabers, and various bolo forms, but I don't recall seeing such a hilt on a barung before. Ian.

11th September 2015, 12:03 PM	#8
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,258	Have you or anyone else previously posted "these shaped pommels, " on the forum, that you can direct me to the link; so that it can be a point of reference for my blade. It is interesting that this hilt is unusual for a barong, but I guess, unlike our modern "throw away," culture , everything was utilized; if you had a perfectly good handle and your barong needed one , there was the quick fix.