the Kampilan exclusively Moro?

VANDOO · 6th September 2015, 08:57 PM

NOT KNOWING THE BASE LINE METAL WEAPONS ( FIRST ONES) TO COME TO THE PHILIPPINES WE HAVE TO USE CONJECTURE, LOGIC AND BEST GUESS TO PREDICT THEIR LIKELY EVOLUTION.
TO START WITH WE CAN ASSUME ALL THE TRIBES WOULD HAVE BEEN PAGANS ( A TERM USED BY ALL MAJOR RELIGIONS TO DESCRIBE THE BELIEFS OF TRIBAL PEOPLE OR ONES NOT OF THEIR RELIGION). HEADHUNTING WAS WIDELY PRACTICED BUT THE EXTERMINATION OR ENSLAVING OF ENTIRE TRIBES VERY UNCOMMON AT THAT TIME. MOST TRIBES WERE LIKELY RELATED AS MANY HAD SPLIT AND MOVED APART TO HAVE ENOUGH RESOURCES TO SURVIVE. COMPETITION FOR TERRITORY AS WELL AS PRESTIGE AMONG THESE GROUPS WOULD HAVE INCLUDED HEADHUNTING RAIDS.
THE DAYAKS AND NAGAS WERE BOTH HEADHUNTERS AND FAVORED A HEAVY BLUNT ENDED PARANG ( MANDAU OR NAG AX) THE TIBOLI AND BAGOBO STILL FAVOR THIS FORM OF BLADE AND I SUSPECT THIS WAS THE FAVORED FORM THRU-OUT THE ISLANDS BEFORE THE MOROS OR SPAIN CAME. THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN TRADE AND INFLUENCES FROM MALAY, BATAK, CHINESE AND PERHAPS OTHERS AS WELL. I ATTRIBUTE THE LONG SHARP POINTED WEAPONS TO BE PRIMARILY FROM SPANISH INFLUENCE AND THE BOWIE BLADE SHAPE PERHAPS FROM LATER AMERICAN INFLUENCES. THE KAMPILIAN PROBABLY WAS A LARGER VERSION OF THE EARLIER BLUNT ENDED PARANGS. THE MORO MAY HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO DEVELOP THE KAMPILIAN OR IT COULD HAVE COME FROM ELSEWHERE AND BEEN ADOPTED BY THEM.?
WHO BROUGHT IN THE FIRST METAL BLADES FOR TRADE IS UNKNOWN. MOORS WHO STARTED THE MOROS FAVORED LARGER WEAPONS AND WERE MORE WARLIKE THAN THE PAGAN TRIBES AND NO DOUBT HAD MORE AND BETTER WEAPONS. INSTEAD OF JUST PROTECTING THEIR TERRITORY AND RAISING THEIR OWN CROPS THEY RAIDED FOR SLAVES. THE SLAVES DID ALL THE WORK LEAVING THE MEN FREE TO MAKE WAR AND HAVE MANY WIVES AND CHILDREN WHICH REQUIRED MORE SLAVES TO SERVE THEM. THIS SYSTEM IS WHAT MADE THE REPUTATION AS GREAT WARRIORS THAT THE MOROS DEVELOPED. THEY DEVELOPED LARGER WEAPONS BETTER SUITED FOR WAR AND PRACTICED AND TRAINED PRIMARILY TO BE WARRIORS. THE PAGAN TRIBES WENT ON THE OCCASIONAL HEADHUNTING RAID AND HAD OCCASIONAL BATTLES TO DEFEND THEIR TERRITORY BUT WERE NOT PROFESSIONAL WARRIORS. PAGAN TRIBES HUNTED, FARMED, AND MOSTLY DID THEIR OWN WORK NOT HAVING LARGE NUMBERS OF SLAVES .
THE MYSTIC STORIES OF THE KERIS OR PERHAPS SOME SLAVES TAKEN OR BOUGHT FROM THE REGIONS WHERE THE KERIS DAGGERS AND LEGENDS WERE, WAS LIKELY THE SOURCE OF THE CREATION OF THE MORO KRIS. THE MORO FAVORED A LARGE SWORD CAPABLE OF REMOVING HEADS AND LIMBS SO A LARGER MODIFIED VERSION INCORPORATING SOME OF THE MAGICAL FEATURES EVOLVED. THE KAMPILIAN IS A LARGER MORE FIERCE VERSION OF THE BLUNT ENDED SWORDS PERHAPS FROM THE EARLIER PAGAN TRIBES SUCH AS THE BAGOBO AND TIBOLI.
THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE BUT A LIKELY SCENARIO. MY USE OF PAGAN AND ANY OTHER TERMS ARE NOT INTENDED TO LOOK DOWN ON OR DISRESPECT ANYONE.

David · 7th September 2015, 05:04 PM

Barry, i think perhaps animistic might be a better term for these tribes than pagan, though many would certainly consider Animism a form of Paganism.
I would also like to point out that the Moros were not started by the Moors, an ethnic group they really had no contact with. It was the colonial forces of the Spanish who coined the term Moro because these people were Muslims like the Moors that they knew.
It seems obvious that the kris/kalis developed from the keris, but this came to the Moro peoples along with the influx of Islam that flowed from Indonesian states where the keris was established so i don't think to has anything to do with some chance transference from a slave taken by a Moro tribe. I believe it developed into a larger slashing sword specifically to combat the Spanish. I am not convinced that we can categorize the Moro tribes (there are 13 different ethnic groups among them) as being intrinsically more war-like than the more animistic tribes of the region. They were involved for centuries fighting off Spanish colonial domination and when Spain lost the Philippines to the USA they continued their fight for an independent state against us. While they did indeed engage in piracy and raiding of Spanish and Christian held areas it must we remembered that they were at war with these force, not necessarily trying to extend their territories as much as free them from colonial control.

kronckew · 7th September 2015, 05:22 PM

don't forget not all the 'moro' tribes supported the insurrection against the USA, a good proportion didn't and fought with the USA against the others.

tribal animosities taking precedence over religion and politics. pershing essentially defeated the moro insurrectionists by being more brutal and more inhumane than they were and more so than the US army had been to the native population of america in the preceding decades.

David · 8th September 2015, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

...more inhumane than they were and more so than the US army had been to the native population of america in the preceding decades.

I'm sure an argument could probably be made both ways on this.
And yes, different Moro tribes had very unique identities and cultures and were often not a united front.

Rick · 8th September 2015, 03:48 AM

Pershing was humane compared to Wood; but we digress .

Jim McDougall · 8th September 2015, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I'm sure an argument could probably be made both ways on this.
And yes, different Moro tribes had very unique identities and cultures and were often not a united front.

This is an intriguing discussion!
It seems reasonable to note that in any culture or civilization there will be deviations, ideals, religious and traditional variations etc. so assuming that any tribal group or ethnicity were entirely 'standardized' would be profoundly incorrect.

Question on 'animism', would this not be considered a 'classification' of a following of a form of faith rather than a structured religion?
It seems that Paganism was more structured, and often used animist oriented practices and beliefs. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the two terms so clarification would be appreciated.

It is great to see discussion looking into the origins of the kampilan. Like many ethnographic forms, it is often unclear whether the form itself existed deeper in antiquity, or was its name simply a term used for a type of weapon not necessarily of the same exact form?

David · 8th September 2015, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is an intriguing discussion!
It seems reasonable to note that in any culture or civilization there will be deviations, ideals, religious and traditional variations etc. so assuming that any tribal group or ethnicity were entirely 'standardized' would be profoundly incorrect.

Well, probably the main thing that all Moros share in common as a standard is the religion of Islam. I honestly can't be sure, but i image that this religious belief as practiced by the various Moro tribes is fairly similar. However, the Moros are not a tribe per se, but rather they are are group of many tribes with varying languages (Manguindanaon, Tausug, Maranao mostly, though there is also Sama-Bajau languages, Yakan and Kalangan) and traditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Question on 'animism', would this not be considered a 'classification' of a following of a form of faith rather than a structured religion?
It seems that Paganism was more structured, and often used animist oriented practices and beliefs. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the two terms so clarification would be appreciated.

Jim, religions can be considered "pagan", but there is no structured religion called Paganism. The term is often defines as below:
A religion that has many gods or goddesses, considers the earth holy, and does not have a central authority.
In my readings on the indigenous population of this area i am most often finding their beliefs describes as animistic. This is the indigenous belief system that existed amongst the peoples of these regions before the influx of outside religions such as Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. Animism is often defined as follows:
The belief in the existence of individual spirits that inhabit natural objects and phenomena.

Jim McDougall · 8th September 2015, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, probably the main thing that all Moros share in common as a standard is the religion of Islam. I honestly can't be sure, but i image that this religious belief as practiced by the various Moro tribes is fairly similar. However, the Moros are not a tribe per se, but rather they are are group of many tribes with varying languages (Manguindanaon, Tausug, Maranao mostly, though there is also Sama-Bajau languages, Yakan and Kalangan) and traditions.

Jim, religions can be considered "pagan", but there is no structured religion called Paganism. The term is often defines as below:
A religion that has many gods or goddesses, considers the earth holy, and does not have a central authority.
In my readings on the indigenous population of this area i am most often finding their beliefs describes as animistic. This is the indigenous belief system that existed amongst the peoples of these regions before the influx of outside religions such as Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. Animism is often defined as follows:
The belief in the existence of individual spirits that inhabit natural objects and phenomena.

Well explained David, thank you!
That clarification really does help as we consider the nature of the main topic here concerning the kampilan, and the suggestion of a 'Moro' classification for these swords, especially confining under that term.

While these terms do not of course apply specifically to the weapon we are discussing, it does help to understand the proper definition of them as we look into the tribal and ethnic groups using them. Actually even looking these up in dictionary definitions does not describe them as effectively as applied here with more specific ethnographical applications.

As Battara has well noted, the 'kampilan' as a form was likely a culmination of sword types in varying regions and tribal groups, and became known in the 'Moro' category by the Spanish.

VANDOO · 8th September 2015, 05:42 AM

MY MISTAKE

ISLAM PROBABLY CAME TO THE PHILIPPINES FROM MALAYSIA OR SOME OTHER PLACE WHERE THE KERIS WAS PRESENT. THE MOORS, AS YOU POINT OUT WERE THERE IN NAME ONLY WHICH ARRIVED WITH THE SPANISH. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO SPECULATE WHAT SORT OF WEAPONS MIGHT HAVE EVOLVED IN THE PHILIPPINES IF THE MOORS HAD COLONIZED THERE.

6th September 2015, 08:57 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NOT KNOWING THE BASE LINE METAL WEAPONS ( FIRST ONES) TO COME TO THE PHILIPPINES WE HAVE TO USE CONJECTURE, LOGIC AND BEST GUESS TO PREDICT THEIR LIKELY EVOLUTION. TO START WITH WE CAN ASSUME ALL THE TRIBES WOULD HAVE BEEN PAGANS ( A TERM USED BY ALL MAJOR RELIGIONS TO DESCRIBE THE BELIEFS OF TRIBAL PEOPLE OR ONES NOT OF THEIR RELIGION). HEADHUNTING WAS WIDELY PRACTICED BUT THE EXTERMINATION OR ENSLAVING OF ENTIRE TRIBES VERY UNCOMMON AT THAT TIME. MOST TRIBES WERE LIKELY RELATED AS MANY HAD SPLIT AND MOVED APART TO HAVE ENOUGH RESOURCES TO SURVIVE. COMPETITION FOR TERRITORY AS WELL AS PRESTIGE AMONG THESE GROUPS WOULD HAVE INCLUDED HEADHUNTING RAIDS. THE DAYAKS AND NAGAS WERE BOTH HEADHUNTERS AND FAVORED A HEAVY BLUNT ENDED PARANG ( MANDAU OR NAG AX) THE TIBOLI AND BAGOBO STILL FAVOR THIS FORM OF BLADE AND I SUSPECT THIS WAS THE FAVORED FORM THRU-OUT THE ISLANDS BEFORE THE MOROS OR SPAIN CAME. THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN TRADE AND INFLUENCES FROM MALAY, BATAK, CHINESE AND PERHAPS OTHERS AS WELL. I ATTRIBUTE THE LONG SHARP POINTED WEAPONS TO BE PRIMARILY FROM SPANISH INFLUENCE AND THE BOWIE BLADE SHAPE PERHAPS FROM LATER AMERICAN INFLUENCES. THE KAMPILIAN PROBABLY WAS A LARGER VERSION OF THE EARLIER BLUNT ENDED PARANGS. THE MORO MAY HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO DEVELOP THE KAMPILIAN OR IT COULD HAVE COME FROM ELSEWHERE AND BEEN ADOPTED BY THEM.? WHO BROUGHT IN THE FIRST METAL BLADES FOR TRADE IS UNKNOWN. MOORS WHO STARTED THE MOROS FAVORED LARGER WEAPONS AND WERE MORE WARLIKE THAN THE PAGAN TRIBES AND NO DOUBT HAD MORE AND BETTER WEAPONS. INSTEAD OF JUST PROTECTING THEIR TERRITORY AND RAISING THEIR OWN CROPS THEY RAIDED FOR SLAVES. THE SLAVES DID ALL THE WORK LEAVING THE MEN FREE TO MAKE WAR AND HAVE MANY WIVES AND CHILDREN WHICH REQUIRED MORE SLAVES TO SERVE THEM. THIS SYSTEM IS WHAT MADE THE REPUTATION AS GREAT WARRIORS THAT THE MOROS DEVELOPED. THEY DEVELOPED LARGER WEAPONS BETTER SUITED FOR WAR AND PRACTICED AND TRAINED PRIMARILY TO BE WARRIORS. THE PAGAN TRIBES WENT ON THE OCCASIONAL HEADHUNTING RAID AND HAD OCCASIONAL BATTLES TO DEFEND THEIR TERRITORY BUT WERE NOT PROFESSIONAL WARRIORS. PAGAN TRIBES HUNTED, FARMED, AND MOSTLY DID THEIR OWN WORK NOT HAVING LARGE NUMBERS OF SLAVES . THE MYSTIC STORIES OF THE KERIS OR PERHAPS SOME SLAVES TAKEN OR BOUGHT FROM THE REGIONS WHERE THE KERIS DAGGERS AND LEGENDS WERE, WAS LIKELY THE SOURCE OF THE CREATION OF THE MORO KRIS. THE MORO FAVORED A LARGE SWORD CAPABLE OF REMOVING HEADS AND LIMBS SO A LARGER MODIFIED VERSION INCORPORATING SOME OF THE MAGICAL FEATURES EVOLVED. THE KAMPILIAN IS A LARGER MORE FIERCE VERSION OF THE BLUNT ENDED SWORDS PERHAPS FROM THE EARLIER PAGAN TRIBES SUCH AS THE BAGOBO AND TIBOLI. THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE BUT A LIKELY SCENARIO. MY USE OF PAGAN AND ANY OTHER TERMS ARE NOT INTENDED TO LOOK DOWN ON OR DISRESPECT ANYONE. Last edited by VANDOO; 7th September 2015 at 07:45 AM.

7th September 2015, 05:04 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Barry, i think perhaps animistic might be a better term for these tribes than pagan, though many would certainly consider Animism a form of Paganism. I would also like to point out that the Moros were not started by the Moors, an ethnic group they really had no contact with. It was the colonial forces of the Spanish who coined the term Moro because these people were Muslims like the Moors that they knew. It seems obvious that the kris/kalis developed from the keris, but this came to the Moro peoples along with the influx of Islam that flowed from Indonesian states where the keris was established so i don't think to has anything to do with some chance transference from a slave taken by a Moro tribe. I believe it developed into a larger slashing sword specifically to combat the Spanish. I am not convinced that we can categorize the Moro tribes (there are 13 different ethnic groups among them) as being intrinsically more war-like than the more animistic tribes of the region. They were involved for centuries fighting off Spanish colonial domination and when Spain lost the Philippines to the USA they continued their fight for an independent state against us. While they did indeed engage in piracy and raiding of Spanish and Christian held areas it must we remembered that they were at war with these force, not necessarily trying to extend their territories as much as free them from colonial control.

7th September 2015, 05:22 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	don't forget not all the 'moro' tribes supported the insurrection against the USA, a good proportion didn't and fought with the USA against the others. tribal animosities taking precedence over religion and politics. pershing essentially defeated the moro insurrectionists by being more brutal and more inhumane than they were and more so than the US army had been to the native population of america in the preceding decades.

8th September 2015, 03:48 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Pershing was humane compared to Wood; but we digress .

8th September 2015, 05:42 AM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MY MISTAKE ISLAM PROBABLY CAME TO THE PHILIPPINES FROM MALAYSIA OR SOME OTHER PLACE WHERE THE KERIS WAS PRESENT. THE MOORS, AS YOU POINT OUT WERE THERE IN NAME ONLY WHICH ARRIVED WITH THE SPANISH. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO SPECULATE WHAT SORT OF WEAPONS MIGHT HAVE EVOLVED IN THE PHILIPPINES IF THE MOORS HAD COLONIZED THERE.